Bis power improvement

[tcosy]

I've just bought a BIS (see Resto section) its a non-runner at present but that appears to be an ignition issue. 1st thoughts were to change the engine, but now i'm inclined to just work with what i have. A bit of research suggests the engine should develop 26bhp when in optimum state (which i'm sure it isn't) however a bit more digging reveals that this engine was re-used in the Cinquecento (poland). In that install the engine (still 704cc) produced 30-31 bhp (extra 15%) still running on a Carburettor but maybe electronic ignition. Does anyone have any information so that i can understand what changes were made and if the Head/Carb/Cam/whatever are available?
Last question has anyone injected a 126 Air or Bis engine and if so what system and what results did they obtain?

[Pete126]

Don't know what the spec is on that engine, only it rotates anti clockwise from the bis.
Maybe Dajwid or goombas might be able to find out from a polish site

[tcosy]

Thanks Pete, Dajwid/Goombas any information would be greatly appreciated. It feels like 35 bhp with reasonable torque and excellent economy should be available from an injected mildly tuned engine of 704cc. Also keen to understand the origins of the engine (just for the record). For a concern the size of FIAT to invest in an engine development for such a niche market as Poland is difficult to understand, and the specification of the engine implies it is from a previous generation of FIAT's, by the time FIAT had got to the late sixties all new designs were OHC, and legacy Lanica engines would be either flat4/DOHC-4Cyl/V4, so a line of logical origin would seem to be the OHV 903cc family, but that has a 65mm x 68mm (Bore x Stroke) at its maximum capacity, whereas the BIS has 80mm x 70mm, which would virtually guarantee that it didn't have its origin in that design. Any info greatfully received. PS Has anyone asked the Factory?

[Gordan]

Hy, the question you have posted is really an interesting one, it would seem that the bis engine was newly developed just for the car, and that is why it has so many bugs, the cinqecento 704cc engine was greatly revised from that of the bis and it seems to be much more reliable, if you manage to get any data on the engine post it here, im really interested.
As for improving the power of your bis, from what ive read in the last 2 years no engine will fit straight on, and all modifications take a lot of effort, so if you dont plan to race it, i would recommend fixing the orig engine, its the cheapest and simplest alternative...  [-/

[MaLi]

The CC700 cylinder head has 1mm bigger inlet valves. From what I know the cc700 head should be plug&play for bis.

Trying to convert the cc700 engine to fit BIS is pointless as most of the parts would have to be adapted from BIS anyway.

Regarding the originis of BIS engine - it is closely related to the aircooled engine as many parts are interchangable, for example crank shaft from BIS will fit aircooled (but CC700 crankshaft will not fit BIS without some minor mods)

EDIT:
Re fuel injection: there has been at least one BIS in Poland with single point fuel injection running MegaSquirt

[stuey]

theres a bis in the uk running injection it belongs to a forum member on here and Ive seen it (overtaking me) so it must work well....its seriously smart!

[tcosy]

Thanks for the feedback thus far, seems i made a classic mistake in assumming that the air and water cooled 126 engines were unrelated, but a closer look at the Bore/stroke of the WC engine to the AC engine perhaps would have taken me to that conclusion. Thanks for the info Mali 

It is well documented that the engine in the Cinquecento (CC700) version ran in the opposite rotation, so is of limited value, unless the block (crank) received some worthwhile mods. The Head however seems a worthwhile starting point, with its increased valve size. Cams probably not.

So i guess the two questions i would like to table are:
1) Does anyone have a contact for a secondhand head for a CC700?
2) Can the Forum owner who has injected his BIS please step forward and give us the engine spec and if known a rolling road ouput of the power/torque curves.

I would like to look at multipoint direct injection, but as a stepping stone to that, perhaps the following actions.
Single point
Multipoint
Multipoint Direct Injection.

Thanks all

[dajwid]

Why not just put a different engine in, why bother with a CC engine with the tiny HP it puts out?
Alfa engine to keep the italian feel, anything will go in with the determination. We all know of mad engine swaps. Why the 700CC engine?
Just seems you are looking for the hardest way to get more power.

Or maybe I am talking out of my bottom.

[tcosy]

You are absolutely correct if the pursuit was power alone. I wanted to keep the car near standard, but also explore using the best of what Fiat had to offer and bring some technology to the solution. The real focus is economy, but as power and efficiency are bed fellows, the path is similar. If i was to go down the route of an engine swap then i would be thinking Alfa Boxer 1.7 16v as my other Classic car is a Alfa Romeo Alfetta GTV 3.0 V6, etc.

[bis13]

i find the most ecconomic thing to do is nothing , i dont even get up somedays...

[tcosy]

That's an excellent plan, why have i been so blinkered?, i'll stick with that for now 

[MaLi]

I might be the only one in here, but to me 126 makes sense only with 2cyl in back.

Its a bit like with a VW Beetle/Camper - only aircooled flat 4s are cool.

I hope that you will go ahead with your fuel injected BIS project, as very few people have gone down the route of modifying BIS engine compared to aircooled.

Good luck and please keep us informed.

Regards,

Mali

[dajwid]

Its a bit like with a VW Beetle/Camper - only aircooled flat 4s are cool

Mmmmm, many scooby or Audi t25 owners would disagree as would the many 911 engined VWs out there. also flat 4s are very easy to mod due to the millions of them out there. Parts are easy to come by, bolt on mods are cheap and easy to do.
Same goes for the Aircooled engines, plenty of bolt on goodies as well as mad, madder and crazy mods available.

Bis engine re-design gets a lot more difficult, I just said if more power was the aim a transplant would be a lot quicker and a million % more successful.

Many have tried to mod bis engines, rebores, carb changes, turbos and injection and apart from a couple of HP more or a few ml less fuel usage have never really been too earth shattering.

Nearly all the 126 owners that decide to go down the engine tuning route go for an aircooled.

Then again most new owners that decide to squeeze more and more power from a 126 end up with an unfinished project in the garden.

But some like a standard 126 aircooled, some like Bis, some stuff a V8 or a w****el in the back, others stick on spoilers and paint them dayglow green, some even paint them mat black.
So just do what you want at the end of the day. Thats why this forum is so much fun.

Bloody hell that was a sensless rant about nothing.
 

[tcosy]

...........and relax 

The plan is to get the BIS running (as it doesn't yet) Strip, weld, zinc spray, etch prime and paint. replace running gear where needed, lower it and fit nice wheels and a decent interior. Run standard engine and develop new CC700 injection engine on a rig. I can call on a number of Jaguar Engine development engineers for injection spec/engine mapping. When !!! successful, fit into car, hopefully this will mean its not just another garden project, but no promises.
The Alfa project wavered a bit on route, but got there in the end. I'll keep everyone informed thro thr resto section. But i still need that contact/stroke tech info on a cc700 head/etc. oh yeah plus the info on the injected BIS out there.

[bis13]

the only thing i can suggest is have a word with fiat for the cc spec .