Author Topic: Motorbike or car engine swap  (Read 5714 times)

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Revolver

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Motorbike or car engine swap
« on: September 03, 2008, 03:53:32 PM »
Right

I've thought hard and I reckon using a motorbike engine will be the most straight forwards in terms of gearboxes.
My other options were a 1.1 Cinquecento engine, but it being a front mounted engine the gearbox would be in the wrong place.

Right, one of the ideas is to use a motorbike engine, between 1000cc and 1200cc.

I know I need to use some kind of chain drive. That shouldn't be much of a problem, I think I would need to find a way to mount the rear sprocket of a motorbike onto my car's axle. Chain tensioning could be interesting.

I think to get the gearbox to work I would need to create some kind of linkage so that it would use the motorbike's gearbox. It would effectively give me sequential gears. In fact, it would. That might pose to be a problem, but it would be relatively easy to create the linkage, I think.
the other thing I have thought about is what to do about a reverse gear, as very few motorbikes have them.

The thing that I'm giving the most thought to at the moment is actually fitting the engine into the car.


My other choice was using the engine from something like a cinquecento.
If I bought a whole cinquecento, it would mean I'd have a lot of parts i could use to upgrade my own car, including the brakes. The difficult thing is getting the engine to fit into my car. Ideally, I want to keep the rear seats, seeing as there's not much room in the front, it would be a place I could put my trials bike when I take it to places.
I think that one thing I would need to fabricate is longer gear linkages. I would need to do this with a motorbike engine anyway, which sort of evens out the pros and cons of each engine, and means using a car engine might be slightly easier as it means less messing around to fix a reverse system up - its got one already.

Anyway, I would appreciate your help on either fitting a motorbike engine in or a cinquecento engine in.
I'm going to do this! :)
Thanks,
Revolver

Gordan

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Motorbike or car engine swap
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2008, 04:31:12 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1Dwe46QWLk

heres a link to a youtube clip with a fireblade engine in a bis, its a boody waste of a nice car if you ask me, which has probably been scrapped after the guys had their fun but everyone is free to do what they wish right?  :wink:

hope it gave you some ideas.
PLEASE FOLLOW MY PROGRESS ON IG: https://www.instagram.com/fiatbis/

JamesY

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Motorbike or car engine swap
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2008, 09:49:52 PM »
Revolver,

I'm looking at this conversion at the moment (and there's plenty of similar conversions out there - just check the Z-cars mini's for ideas).

In short (and I've not done this yet, but this is my understanding so far!):

900 or 1000cc bike engine will be more than enough - Fireblade, ZX9R, TL1000 etc (although some people have gone bigger - 1300 hayabusa or gsx1400  :shock:  ). Make sure you get the loom (clocks if you want), fuel pump, throttle bodies, exhaust as well.

Use the bike gearbox so you have the sequential change. Rigging up the gearchange should be quite simple - either use a floor mounted lever or any one of the many kit car companies can offer paddles which could be adapted to fit the fiat steering column.

Build an engine cradle (round or square section steel tube minimum of 16 guage) that you can mount from either existing strong pickup points (seatbelt, engine, gearbox mounts) on the chassis or strengthen the relevant areas with steel plate. How and where you mount i depends on where you want the engine in the car and how much of the floor you want to cut out!

Conventional setup would be to remove the back seat and have the engine as far forward as possible with the chain directed back towards a sprocket mounted between the rear wheels.

On to the engine cradle extend a set of mounts to a chain diff carrier (companies like MK Sportscars, Z-cars, west garage engineering etc can supply a chain diff carrier) - you'll need to think of a method of tensioning the chain - slotted mounts or rose joints etc. These carriers are designed to house bearings.

You'll need a chain diff if you don't want lots of tyre wear and crap cornering - quaiffe do a tasty ATB item that utilises fiesta/escort parts or if you have a look at westgarage engineering http://www.westgarage.co.uk do carriers and diffs (utilising a modified sierra item).

You now need to connect the output of the diff to your existing hubs so you'll need some custom drive shafts (either make these up using a combination of ford/fiat parts or get them custom made - you'll need to be quite precise about the length and will need to think about the right splined ends/tripodes)

Electrics will depend on the bike etc. But you'll need to maintain the ecu, loom etc if you want to retain the standard throttle bodies (unless you want to swap to fully mappable unit like the Omex or Emerald).

Exhaust route will depend on how you install the engine and where you want the silencers to exit. But using the exsting manifold and can would probably be easiest and fabricate the necessary connecting pipework.

Cooling will be engine dependent but my favoured option would be front mounted radiator to get the heat away from the back of the car since this will generate a lot of heat!

Fuel - either use the bike pump or an aftermarket pump and again I'd favour a front mounted tank (similar to the Fiat 500 setup). Make sure it includes a swirl pot or fit a standalone unit.

Very high level overview, it'll obviously be a lot more involved than this and I intend to replace the rear suspension for a double wishbone / coilover setup (same for the front). Obviously brakes will need attention too (some of the guys on here are using Siecento discs and calipers on the front).

Hmm. think that's it for now.. I'm sure if I've forgotten something someone on here will chip in...

James

JamesY

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Reversing box
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2008, 10:03:04 PM »
Meant to say that the law for kit cars is changing next year and it will be compulsory for all cars undergoing SVA to have a reverse gear (currently most bike engined kits don't bother). There are a few companies that offer a reversing drive (i think Z-cars is one of them).

However, there's no requirement for a modified car to have a reverse gear so you wouldn't have to fit one (just put a flap in the floor so you can back pedal!  :lol: )

Hope that helps

James

Dom

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Motorbike or car engine swap
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2008, 10:19:37 AM »
I do not doubt that driving a bike engined 126 would be awesome fun - however unless you plan on spending at least £5-6k on the conversion, it would be very unlikely that you will finish it. The cheapest Z-cars mini I have seen is £16,000 - second hand!

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/688237.htm

Good luck with it though, would be great if you could go through with it - and hopefully encourage people like Z-cars to take on the 126 - raising it's profile.

Darrell

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Motorbike or car engine swap
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2008, 12:00:50 PM »
I bought an Air cooled 126 because I believe the performance parts eg panda head etc will give me enough.

Sooner or later they will come-up with enough to make a 650 into a real performance engine.......I hope. :???:

I know it's going to cost but then the cost can be spread over a longer period of time while still keeping the car on the road.

I can see if I went into an engine swap, the car would sit on the driveway for months and months!
'84 aircooled 126 & 500F still in kit form
Not the only African in the village :)

JamesY

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Motorbike or car engine swap
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2008, 08:39:30 PM »
You could do this for a lot less if you're happy to fabricate the bits yourself and (despite what some people are charging for bike engines) you can still pick up the bits for reasonable money if you know where to look.

One of the reasons the Z-cars conversions tend to cost a bit is because it's really well designed and engineered, race proven and is based on R1/Hayabusa/Civic Type R engines - all of which command a big premium.

But yes, if you're buying off the shelf parts to convert the bills will quickly mount up. I'm going to do a combination of the two.

I bought a Bis with no tax or MOT so I wouldn't feel guilty about taking the angle grinder to it. I wouldn't be doing this if I had an air-cooled model (and at some stage I'd like to get an air cooled and keep that standard).

J

PS edited to say I've no idea how the end result will drive, short wheel base, wide track and lots of power to the rear wheels - it'll probably swap ends quicker than a very twitchy thing! But I'm lookign forward to the challenge of building it!  :lol:  then rebuilding it when I crash!  :shock:

PPS Revolver,  the mini in Dom's link has a reversing setup (starter modified to provide an electric reverse drive)

Revolver

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Motorbike or car engine swap
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2008, 05:02:14 PM »
The idea of a motorbike engine conversion is a tricky one.
I've been told I ought to keep it standard, but I bought it because i wanted to change the engine in one.
The z-cars conversion seems like a good one to try, but it doesn't help that I don't earn that much!

My brother was initially up for the idea of buying a cinquecento sporting, so that he could have the alloy wheels (haha) and I could use the engine and other parts from that.

Now, if we got a cheap one, that would be nearly everything I'd need.

I'm at the concept stage at the moment. Once I get to the other side of christmas things might be able to start happening.
Until then I'm collecting ideas, and figuring out what would be my best option.

Tomasz

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Motorbike or car engine swap
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2008, 12:38:29 AM »
If anyone manages to finish one of these projects and gets bored with is get in touch with me as it is something i am very interested in but def dont have the skills to do myself yet!

dajwid

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Motorbike or car engine swap
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2008, 09:01:16 AM »
There are normally a few fire engined 126 for sale on Allegro.

126dave

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Motorbike or car engine swap
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2008, 04:46:08 PM »
Quote from: "dajwid"
There are normally a few fire engined 126 for sale on Allegro.



yes i see that, i also see the normal polish level of engineering as well when it comes to maluchs or even 124/125 fiats. some are good, some are woefully less than good....

buyer beware.....
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