Author Topic: Three year, £10,000+ ongoing DISASTER. Please read and protect yourself!  (Read 8686 times)

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Lina

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Hi kids, pull up a comfy seat, I have a story to tell you…

So, a lot of you have been asking ‘what’s going on with the 126?’. Some of you may even be saying ‘I didn’t know you even HAD a 126!’.  The short answer is ‘it’s in restoration’.  The long answer is a bit more nuanced than that.

After driving the little car 2,500 miles to Slovakia and back in 2013 (https://www.facebook.com/pg/126toSlovakia ) (12 countries in 12 days, raising money for Mind after my Mum died, in part due to the side effects of mental illness), I took it off the road to get restored.  It seemed a good idea too, to spend some of what my Mum left me on a ‘new car’, in this case, a newly restored ‘old’ car (as well as clear some of my mortgage – relevant later). I though £8000 max was a good amount for a new car, or for (at the time) 32 more years out of the car that had served me so well.  £2000 was set aside for the engine and gearbox revamps as well as for getting the whole chassis dipped to remove all the rust (£680).  And £6000 was set as the max budget for the bodywork welding, repainting and putting it all back together again.  Parts were bought by me over and above the budget, because hey, I can’t do maths.

The rolling chassis went up to David S. and Marcus B. of **** up in Leeds in November 2014, with a deadline for completion of my wedding day, 15th August 2015.  As they didn’t have to do any of the mechanical side of things, this seemed quite reasonable.

Time passed.  Chunks of £500 were transferred to Mr B.’s personal bank account as he requested them, with occasional emails and photos of progress as it was made.  In October 2015 (please note where that is on the agreed deadline for completion) I asked for a financial breakdown of where we were with the car, labour was at £4773, of which I’d paid £2500, so £2273 outstanding.  In his opinion, there was still going to be £5150 on top of that, for materials and approximately 7 weeks’ remaining of labour (3 weeks’ welding and 4 weeks’ painting and rebuilding).  This was my first Big Surprise.  What I’d budgeted £6000 for was actually going to cost nigh on £10,000 to finish! But you know what, I kept getting assured he was doing such a fine job, with such great skill and attention to detail, and well, the hassle of moving the project now would be detrimental, so okay… my mind was adjusted to an embarrassing amount for a restoration of a basic model 126, but there you go.  Go ahead, Mr B.!

Now let us fast forward to May 2017, this year, passing many promises of new deadlines that sailed past unmet.  Despite only needing three weeks’ worth of welding back in 2015, the car is STILL not finished on the welding side of things.  So I ask for a second financial summary of the restoration so far.  Mr B. now agrees I’ve now paid him £6000 in chunks of £500 to his personal account, that labour and materials so far have amounted to £14,800 and an estimate of £3500 open-ended or £5000 fixed price to finish. 

Sorry, pardon?

Yes, £5000 to finish and £8,800 OUTSTANDING to settle up for the current state of the restoration.  Let me remind you what that current state is: WELDING STILL NOT COMPLETE DESPITE THREE YEARS AND SIX GRAND HAVING PASSED.

In fact, it was so ‘sorry, pardon?’ I didn’t actually read the outstanding amount to start with, just that it would be £5000 to finish, so arranged for a local restoration company to take the project on for £3500 - £4000.  It was only in response to me telling Mr B. that I was moving the project that he emphasised the ‘outstanding’ amount.

As you can imagine, some conversations happened after that, many for legal advice, and finally, in order to get the car back due to its sentimental value if anything, I agreed to pay an additional £4061.50, meeting in the middle of our differences of amounts outstanding.

So, having now paid over £10,000 for some unfinished welding, some amazing friends help me load up and transport the car and all its bits down to Colchester, to at least be close to home while its being finished.

And I thought this was the end of the bad part of the story, that this bit would be the bit where the rest of the project goes smoothly and the car gets done etc etc etc. But I’m afraid not.  As of today, I’ve been told that in attempting to work with the doors (new ones needed still, despite costing THOUSANDS already) and putting the bonnet and boot lid back on to check alignment, it turns out Mr B. had welded on the new panels without lining things up first.  The doors hit the wings when opened.  The bonnet isn’t aligned to the front panel or the right hand wing.

I. Am. Beyond. Gutted.

The new restoration company is working on the car today, figuring out what can be done, if anything, but I fear I may have to cut my losses now.  Ten grand down the drain and minus my lovely little car.   :cry:

I will let you all know here if it’s salvageable, but for now, please take heed of this story:
  • Get the deal put in writing, despite how awkward and untrusting that seems
  • Have a contingency plan for what happens if it goes over budget
  • Sanity-check the amounts you’re spending – could you buy a fully restored version of your car for less? Maybe you should.
  • Don’t keep extra parts with the company who’s doing the car.  If it all goes to sh*t, they will have minimal property of yours that will be easier to walk away from (I took the engine and gearbox and all the extra parts up to be with the chassis – I may well have walked away from the chassis if it were on its own)
  • Get advice from experts – car club, local restorers, keep them informed of the progress.  You’re less likely to be taken for a ride if experts are checking progress too.
Lina

P.S. if the car is salvageable, I'm in need of a pair of doors! If it's not, maybe a chassis...!  >:(
« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 07:56:18 AM by Lina »
Lina - as in Lyna - as in dustbin liner, eye liner, ocean going... etc!

Gadge

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Oh no that's a terrible story!  :o and I thought I had a rough time rebuilding mine  :( I know what you mean about the bonnet not lining up, I had a similar experience years ago on a failed restoration project where I used cheap pattern wings and a front panel. It was a nightmare to line up and when I came to fit the bonnet it was all over the place. I was heartbroken :( ...... But to be screwed over by a body shop!

It may not make sense but if you chuck the towel in now then it'll all be for nothing..... Keep at t! :thumbup
FOR LACK OF A BETTER NAME

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drcdb15

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This work is detailed to a limited extent on the Mad Classics facebook page. They claim that a lot of extra work was required because Fiat 500 wings were supplied (the implication is, by Carolina herself) and so they had to do a shedload of cutting and trimming and welding to make the wings fit. I don't know if that claim is true, but even if it is, a responsible shop would have rejected the wings and got the correct ones. I haven't researched this history in detail, but it occurs to me that if this is typical, not only will the replaced panels be suspect, but the 'core' bodyshell is likely distorted by the handling (see the facebook page with the body upside down...) and the huge amount of welding. The photos of patches here, there and everywhere ring all manner of alarm bells. I suspect this body is at least suspect, if not visibly damaged, beyond repair, and sentiment should be put to one side before any more money is lost.

If it's any consolation to you, Lina, I was ripped off to the sum of £3500 by Richard Andrew Stubbs trading then as West Sussex Restorations in Wivelsfield. I had all the specs and contract in place, so my alarm bells rang sooner than yours, but still I had to rescue my car and get it to someone reliable. Investigation after the event  showed Stubbs had a trail of similarly disgusted customers. He dissolved the company not long after my dispute with him, and set up in a nearby area trading as Imperial Restorations. That too has now been dissolved, in 2016, and again he left a trail of dissatisfied customers in his wake - so much so that one of them started a facebook page called Imperial Restorations Limited Clients to gather together as much evidence in one place as they could to try to force him out of business.

Being a contracts professional by trade, I looked into the legal side with more than passing curiosity, and concluded that in my case it was not economically sensible to pursue litigation. Only you can decide whether in your case litigation would make sense, as only you know the particulars.

I see that no-one has yet left any reviews on the Mad Classic facebook page...


Xylaquin

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You set £6000 aside for body restoration!!?!??!! How bad was it to begin with!? I would have thought £2500 absolute max would see any 126 welded and painted up.

Have you left them a... fitting review on their Facebook?

drcdb15

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You set £6000 aside for body restoration!!?!??!! How bad was it to begin with!? I would have thought £2500 absolute max would see any 126 welded and painted up.

Have you left them a... fitting review on their Facebook?
I know the sums quoted by Lina might seem quite high, but let's not jump in being too critical. Lina had recently lost her mother, and whilst not wishing to go into too much personal detail in a public forum, grief can have strange effects on our judgement. I certainly made some major financial and life decisions after my father died that, for about 2 years, were in hindsight less than prudent, and I am a been round a the block more than a few times life hardened old git. Lina is a lady of less than mature years and I have no doubt was deeply upset by her bereavement.

Whether that was a factor or not I don't know, but I think a little slack-cutting might be in order. Please understand this is with no disrespect to yourself, but apart from the Forum members who helped her recover the car down to Essex I suspect we none of us know the full story.

Galling as the experience has been, it is probably time to step back and try to move on with life. Considering the devastating events of recent months in London and Manchester, losing £10,000 is not the end of the world, though of course it doesn't feel that way at the time.

midvillesb

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Oh Lina, this is just awful - I can't believe how badly you've been let down by these incompetent crooks.

Have you looked into the possibility of suing them using the 'small claims' procedure? You don't need a solicitor for this and can bring a claim for up to £10,000 basically without being exposed to the risk of costs (yours and theirs) even if the claim doesn't succeed.

Xylaquin

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lol I wasn't meaning to sound critical, drcdb15, more so extremely surprised... it didn't look too bad in Lina's pics to Slovakia and back!

thepuddlejumper

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Lina, my heart goes out to you, you did not deserve this. These people are crooks and should be stopped from holding any kind of business. They are just con men and should be treated as such. It would be interesting to see how they justify that amount of money for some welding. I have been in a similar situation but with far less financial loss. I hope you will be able to put this terrible situation behind you and retrieve your car and look to the future. I don't have any spare doors or a lot of useable spare parts, but if I have something that would help, you are welcome to it.  It may be worthwhile to put a list up on the site as I'm sure the club members would help you if they could.

Ralph
« Last Edit: June 18, 2017, 11:14:09 AM by thepuddlejumper »

Flying Carpet

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Lina - what a heartbreaking story
I think your advice is really sound - We were at risk of falling into a similar situation ourselves many years ago, but fortunately it never came to it. I guess we were just lucky.

It looks to me like the previous restorers have been over ambitious, and would have been better off either a.) finding a sound shell, or b.) repairing the shell in line with the customer's budget and not attempting to go any further. Instead they have over-extended themselves and have expected you to pay for it.

Although the front end is out of alignment, as frustrating as it is, your new restorers should be able to address this. New front panels are not that expensive and at least there is sound metal to work with.

Try to focus in the positives
You still have the car and all the parts
From the pictures, the shell is now at least sound and rust free
You are now with a reputable company and have the support of some ace club members
You've shared your story so other people can learn from it

If you can stick with it, in the end you can drive away in a car to be proud of.
If you walk away from it all that anguish will be for nothing. But only you can decide what works for you.
Other than that, I don't have any words of wisdom, but I do wish you all the very best in getting it sorted and will be sending some positive thoughts down through the ether. We'll keep rooting for you!  :D

drcdb15

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It looks to me like the previous restorers have been over ambitious, ......they have over-extended themselves and have expected you to pay for it.

Sorry, but "no". Absolutely NO. This is NOT a case of over zealous but basically well-intentioned decent chaps misjudging the work required, this is a quite deliberate scamming right from the outset. How I can be so sure? Decades of sadly all too frequent experience and not just in the motor trade, including successful litigation (which WILL take at least THREE YEARS and have emotional costs lasting years more afterwards - be advised, those who suggest taking action in the so-called small claims court).

Bar Vitelli

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Well, whatever you decide to do, you have achieved legendary status in the 126 world for your Slovakia trip! I remember me and the missus watching your daily updates, better than a TV serial! Drilling the hole in the gearbox so you could get some oil in, getting your son to drive it out of the van because the door would not open, taking a detour and adding to the mileage to visit a club member abroad! Ladislav told me a funny story the other day of how he and a group of people waved at you crazily as you pulled up in Slovakia, you were in a convoy of polish cars and they thought that the reception was for them! Money comes and goes, memories are forever.  8)
Every cloud has one...

drcdb15

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Money comes and goes, memories are forever.  8)
UK average annual wage today is £27,600. In a working lifetime of 45 years that means in today's money around one and a quarter MILLION pounds will pass through your bank account. Of that, around £250,000 or so will go to the tax man. Another £54,000 will go just in council tax. And this ignores the pay rises in real terms that most people are likely to receive in the later years of their working lives as they get promotion or move to better paid jobs. Against that, losing £10K on a scam (and most likely you will *never* make the same mistakes again, for obvious reasons) is not such a disaster - indeed, the wisdom, experience and judgement obtained by such an episode will most likely *save* you money thoughout your life as you are better able to spot the potential pitfalls and avoid them.

pietschokkenbroek

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I think we were all hoping your next post would include a shiny finished freshly restored 126....

This sounds terrible!

I agree with all these wise quotes:

Well, whatever you decide to do, you have achieved legendary status in the 126 world for your Slovakia trip! ..... Money comes and goes, memories are forever.  8)


Try to focus in the positives You still have the car and all the parts. From the pictures, the shell is now at least sound and rust free. You are now with a reputable company and have the support of some ace club members. You've shared your story so other people can learn from it.

If you can stick with it, in the end you can drive away in a car to be proud of.
If you walk away from it all that anguish will be for nothing. But only you can decide what works for you.
Other than that, I don't have any words of wisdom, but I do wish you all the very best in getting it sorted and will be sending some positive thoughts down through the ether. We'll keep rooting for you!  :D

Good luck  :good:

Lina

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You guys are all absolute stars! But I knew that already  ;D

Sorry it's been a little while longer than hoped to reply - Just been finding out what the state of the car is, what the state of the legal situation is and what the state of my energy levels are for carrying on with all this!

I've been to see the car, taking a door I'll buy and a door on loan from 126blackbird (thanks Graham!), to help see how it's all lining up.  The bonnet is indeed badly, badly out, despite how much the new guy has tried to persuade it, and one wing is forward of the other as well as the front panel being well, not lined up at all.  And there is also something screwy with the A pillar as the drivers door won't shut.  The new guy, Keith, is sure that has come from whatever work was done on the floor and inner and outer wings at that place, whilst also being spun around on a spit to do all the work.

Gadge, it sounds very similar to what you say.  And it looks like new panels need to be sourced to replace the front and both wings.  I suspect it may also be worth replacing the inner wing that he thought was from a 500 (that was the only panel that he suspected was from a 500, not more as implied). 

I'm wondering if the 500 inner wing might have been shorter so causing all this misalignment??


drcdb15 - thanks so much for your words, it really is a messy time when someone close dies and you lose a bit of focus.  I'm still waiting for sanity to return!  :P

Xylaquin - it really was that bad!  Have a look at the Flickr album below after it was dipped - it was like a sieve!  But even so, I was very naive.

Midvillesb - Yes, I'm investigating legal action now and am sourcing an independent assessor to come and do a report on the car.  I'll get all the evidence I can get then begin the process.  I don't know what will happen, but I can't just sit back and take this, if anything, because someone else might fall for them in the future.

Ralph - Thanks, I'll do that! So far in need of a driver's door, front panel and two wings (and possibly an inner wing - not sure what side yet!)

It's a heartache and a headache but I do still have hope.  You're all right, it's a solid chunk of metal now, with no rust, which is as rare as rocking horse poop, so I'm going to stick with it a bit longer.

I've put some pics up on Flickr of just how the panels are out: https://www.flickr.com/photos/tangentc/albums/72157682382257644 and the general restore process photos, mostly that Mr B took, are here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/tangentc/albums/72157681192835684.

Thanks again everyone!

Lina xxx
Lina - as in Lyna - as in dustbin liner, eye liner, ocean going... etc!

shielsy

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and i sold a fully restored one for 3k :o