Author Topic: "Oil" ask this only once.......  (Read 10103 times)

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damon500

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Re: "Oil" ask this only once.......
« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2011, 11:34:50 AM »
Interesting comment Alfons..
I have never experienced the problem with synthetic oils that you have described- have used full synthetics in old engines- my current 126 engine had 80,000km on it when I started using synthetic and is now up to 107000km and running fine.
In the many years I have been a mechanic I have seen many engines of all brands suffering from severe internal engine wear through using poor quality oils- there is one model of Alfa Romeo that can suffer camshaft failure within 20000km if a semi synthetic oil is used instead of the full synthetic recommended. I have seen another model that had a tendency to 'run' big end bearings after an oil change using semi-synthetic oil- change to full synthetic and the problem entirely disappeared.
The problem you are referring to with the suspension of dirt in the oil was common when changing from monograde oils to multigrade type- if the engine has a lot of sludge in it from use of cheap oil and infrequent changes then any good quality oil (synthetic or otherwise) will loosen the dirt deposits.
I think the best advice is if your engine is old and dirty and the oil colours quickly after changing then flush it (you can just use kerosene or diesel mixed with engine oil)  
The main thing to consider in terms of protection of the bearings is the shear strength of the lubricant and viscosity stability. In my opinion the 20w50 mineral oil simply just doesn't retain enough viscosity to protect an air cooled engine in extreme hot weather conditions- in cold weather the oil flows better too and the car warms up quicker meaning less choke required and consequently less dilution of the oil from excess fuel... but at the end of the day it is your choice!  

Darrell

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Re: "Oil" ask this only once.......
« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2011, 11:35:10 AM »
I googled Synthetic oils fiat and the following came-up off another forum:

There more differences than just cooling. Old engines with flat tappets rely on a lubricant called zinc dithiophosphate (ZDDP) to prevent the cam shafts from being worn out. The levels of ZDDP is being reduced/eliminated in oils as they reduce the effectiveness of catalytic converters. This is an especially important issue after a rebuild, but I'm trying to find out the impact on older engines generally.
 
Until I'm sure, I am switching to an oil I know to be okay. I recently posted to say I am using Dukhams thinking that was okay, but I am having to double-check as someone told me it isn't - I am checking out which other oils are "safe". So far I have found that Redline and Millers are fine. From what I have read any oils labelled "API ILSAC GF-4" are to be avoided as they are the worst of all. Diesel rated oils should be fine as diesels also need ZDDP. Needless to say, using these modern sythetics in a gearbox doesn't seems a good plan (it was/is common practice with older cars to use the same oil in the engine and box).
 
This ZDDP issue is causing a lot of concern and could be far more serious for old Fiat owners than the "should I use fuel additive" debate. Cam grinders are reporting cams wearing out in no time, despite plenty of moly being used on rebuild. Google ZDDP and you'll see plenty of chatter about it.
 
Another issue I have come across - anyone rebuilding their engine should also avoid modern synthetics until the pistons rings are thoroughly seated - with modern oils rings can fail to seat for thousands of miles!
 
(Note: ZDDP isn't required in modern four stroke engines - flat tappets are not a feature of modern engines)

The next reply was all for synthetic oils :-
'84 aircooled 126 & 500F still in kit form
Not the only African in the village :)

Darrell

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Re: "Oil" ask this only once.......
« Reply #32 on: June 29, 2011, 12:03:22 PM »
Wow there seems to be more to this oil question than I first imagined!

I've always assumed oil to be much of a muchness! :$ :$

I found this one on a 500 website and he seems very confident of what he says which backs-up alot of the Mineral oil guys out there:

For those who like reading and want another point of view, below is reproduced an edited version of the article I referred to earlier which is aimed at the VW aircooled owner but the same principles apply to a 500.....
 
This article and the information contained in it, is truly independant of any fuel company or product manufacturer. There is no bias, blame or solicited promotion. It is written by a professional fuels chemist whose hobby for over 12 years has been restoring aircooled VWs.
 
Engine oil
There are many myths abounding about oil - which is no surprise as oil is doubly important in an aircooled engine. Why is it important? Two reasons - an aircooled engine runs hotter than its water cooled brethren. and also because oil has a secondary duty of assisting in extracting heat from the engine.
 Two such myths are explained:

Myth One - "use diesel oil"
Many many many (etc) years ago, there was a diesel oil made by Shell which was a wonderful substitute for the correct oil for the Beetle. This was about the time that multigrades were in their infancy on the forecourt. Many small non VW garages swore by this certain diesel engine oil - and so they should have - it did the right job. HOWEVER this oil can no longer be bought and there is no substitute - and just like chinese whispers, the detail gets lost as rumours spread from generation to generation.
 DO NOT USE DIESEL ENGINE OIL UNLESS IT ALSO HAS AN API RATING OF AT LEAST "SH"

Myth Two - "don't use multigrade"
This myth stems from the early days of multigrades when the viscosity index improvers of different brands often clashed, with bad results. This meant that you couldn't top your oil up with another brand.
 With modern day oils this is no longer a problem.

Synthetic oil
Because of the formulation process (and the increased advertising that these oils have), synthetic oils are also more expensive than mineral oils - but are they right for a street VW? The simple and current answer is NO. Although one or two oil companies are working on synthetic oils with improved thermal absorption, most synthetic oils do not absorb heat well. This may be good news for a water cooled Le Mans racer, but this is extremely bad news for an air cooled car such as a VW or Porsche where oil has a secondary role as a coolant.
 
Summary
For a street aircooled VW, regardless of age or whether itis stock or gets used on the strip at weekends, use an SAE 10W40 multigrade with a minimum of SH rating. Never use diesel engine oil (unless it has a minimum API SH grade too).
'84 aircooled 126 & 500F still in kit form
Not the only African in the village :)

Darrell

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Re: "Oil" ask this only once.......
« Reply #33 on: June 29, 2011, 12:04:15 PM »
Off to change my oil :$
'84 aircooled 126 & 500F still in kit form
Not the only African in the village :)

bis13

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Re: "Oil" ask this only once.......
« Reply #34 on: June 29, 2011, 07:00:18 PM »
isnt that a bit of common sense not to use diesel oil unless its a diesel?

Darrell

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Re: "Oil" ask this only once.......
« Reply #35 on: June 29, 2011, 07:49:13 PM »
It was explained how people did use diesel oil at some stage.

Nowhere has anyone mentioned cooking oil, I find a drizzle of olive oil on sausages to be good.
'84 aircooled 126 & 500F still in kit form
Not the only African in the village :)

bis13

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Re: "Oil" ask this only once.......
« Reply #36 on: June 29, 2011, 08:39:41 PM »
i would recommend the use of garlic oil on the bad boy wide bodied barbie conversion.

Darrell

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Re: "Oil" ask this only once.......
« Reply #37 on: June 29, 2011, 08:56:24 PM »
 ;D

ground pepper :P
'84 aircooled 126 & 500F still in kit form
Not the only African in the village :)

GTMaster

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Re: "Oil" ask this only once.......
« Reply #38 on: July 16, 2011, 10:27:05 PM »
I know this thread is/was more about engine oils but i'd like to liven up the question of gearbox oils again: what type is best as the service book says 80W/90. For some reason every single half axle rubber boot i've fitted has started leaking and i'm believing to suspect it's because of the oil. There's also a small leak from the side (where the selector shaft retaining pins are) even though i changed the gasket on it and put some grease on the gasket paper too and from the rear housing where the selector rod goes in (o-ring was replaced there too). I'm looking for some sort of additive that will make the oil 'stick' to the parts better and will stop the leakage. The gearbox works fine (can select gears properly and only has a tiny whine in 4th gear which is something i've experienced with many 126's) but i have noticed that even at a standstill 1st does engage with a small grind sometimes ( after putting it into e.g. 2nd before engaging 1st it shifts smoothly).
I bought a bottle of STP engine oil treatment to test and see how it will work  in this hot weather (i reckon these old engines just don't like the new oils in some way), no problems with the engine  either (no smoke emitted for e.g.) but the level does go down a bit after a week of usage....
Any ideas on gearbox oil?
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nrg19uk

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Re: "Oil" ask this only once.......
« Reply #39 on: July 17, 2011, 02:19:34 PM »
Gt master when you change the halfshaft boot rubber did you change the oil seal inside?
Neil gargaro

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Re: "Oil" ask this only once.......
« Reply #40 on: July 18, 2011, 06:38:27 PM »
Hi,

I changed the large O-rings as well when i had the gearbox out. The rubber boot itself has a seal in it where the shaft comes through.... i've just checked the service book as well. There is a seal at the end of the metal sleeve, but that is in one piece with the rubber boot... either that or i've been sooo blind and not replaced that (or fitted it) since i expected that to be already fitted into the rubber boot (i don't remember the old ones i took off when i had the gearbox off to have a seperate seal in it...)  :$
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Draigflag

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Re: "Oil" ask this only once.......
« Reply #41 on: July 27, 2011, 08:09:14 PM »
I'd also like to ask which gearbox oil is recommended as I'm hopefully starting work on my 126 BIS next week and one of the first things i want to do is check the box oil  :)