Fiat 126 Bis/ 500 Giardiniera Info wanted

[damon500]

Hi everyone, nice site and good to see the 126 appreciated as it should be! My current project is a 1961 Fiat 500 Giardiniera which I would like to upgrade mechanically as I restore it.
My question is- does anyone know if the 126 Bis Gearbox will bolt up to the early 500 Giardiniera engine? Also will the Bis Flywheel fit on the Giardiniera engine?
Thanks, Damon

[Darrell]

Not sure of Bellhousing.

Might be advisable to get a 126 BIS box complete and perhaps swap the bellhousing over.
I believe this is what the 500 guys do.

[Alfons1972]

as far as I know, the BIS gearbox fits the giardiniera-engine (at least the later giardinieras), you even do not have to change the bell housing.
in germany some friends of the giardiniera have done this ( www.500forum.de ). But this can only be recommended if your engine has been tuned up to about 25-30HP or more. This is because gear ratio of the BIS differs from the giardiniera...

I'm not sure about the flywheel, sorry...

[damon500]

Hi Alfons and Darrell, Thanks for your replies.
There has been considerable discussion on this topic in the "Introduce yourself" thread and I appreciate your help.
The plan seems to be to use the Bis Bellhousing, Flywheel and clutch with an Air cooled 126 gearbox and a Giardiniera Crankcase fitted with 126 650 barrels and pistons!
If anyone has done this or similar any links or conatcts would be appreciated!

[Rusty's Uncle]

All my fault for starting to talk tech stuff in the wrong section so I have pulled this bit over  [-/
"The early 500"D" Giardiniera has a coil spring clutch and 6 spline input shaft with carbon thrust bearing and different release fork. The 500F/126/127 clutch won't fit
FYI Gsxr126- the 126Bis and 500 Giardiniera have the motor tilted 90 degrees clockwise so the engine is "flat" if I put a sedan motor in the wagon it would stick up through the floor which kind of defeats the purpose of having a wagon...! 
So the current plan is: 126 650 barrels fitted to a bored out Giardiniera Crankcase (with decompression shims under barrels) and Bis Flywheel with 126/127 Diaphragm clutch and 126/bis starter
126 (Niki) Gearbox fitted with Bis bellhousing, 500R axles, 500F Swing arms and maybe a 5 speed conversion (have fitted one on my 500F with Niki motor and box and it is the best!)
So: things I cant get in Australia are: Bis Bellhousing, Flywheel and Starter- (don't mind if it is cable or solenoid type or not working) does anyone have all 3 spare that they would be happy to sell and send downunder?"

[Alfons1972]

If you do this, propably you should use a different camshaft:
look there: http://www.ilmotore.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p23_Nockenwelle-Fiat-500-Giardiniera-300---107---7-6.html
This company also offers a "upgraded" giardiniera-carb, bored to 28mm http://www.ilmotore.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p171_Vergaser-Fiat-500-Giardiniera--Weber-OC-28.html
and optimized cylinder heads with bigger valves... http://www.ilmotore.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p88_Tuningzylinderkopf--Fiat-500-Giardiniera-650ccm.html

That will bring good performance...

The problem is: if you once have begun tuning, you can't stop tuning more and more (and more)... 

greetings,
Alfons

[Rusty's Uncle]

I did another check on the Bis bellhousing yesterday and offered up my spare 126 starter motor. It all lines up. So I would think that you can use a standard Niki starter. Also because of the nature of the Bis flywheel , if you fit one to an aircooled then you will get a massive inbalance. The clutch fixings etc are the same across the later 500 range right through to the Bis so you will have a number of clutch options wth an aircooled flywheel. So that would leave you just needing to import a suitable bell housing and the one I have is up for grabs if you think it will fit  [-/

[damon500]

Hi Rusty,
Thanks for the pic- Niki starter motors seem to be made of unobtanium over here so I would like a starter- dead or alive. I also do need the flywheel due to the balance factor- my Giardiniera has the extra holes bored in it too - the flat motor has different balance factors to the vertical engine- its not to do with the air vs water cooling. I would like to know the piston weight of a 126 Bis piston if anyone has specs to compare with the 650 to see how much I will need to re-balance the whole contraption! I'm definitely interested in the bellhousing- can you also help with the starter and flywheel?

[Rusty's Uncle]

I would not have a Bis flywheel . A shortage of 126 starter motors in Oz & elsewhere seems to be a recurring issue on the forum. One of the problems over the years has been owners getting a new or good used unit when they hit a problem with a starter and binning the old one instead of repairing it. The one in the picture is earmarked for a 126 engine I am rebuilding but I will have a rummage to see what else I can find  [-/
I suggested getting one in Oz as I was thinking of the weight for shipping. I just checked out the shipping rates for 10kgs to Oz & the cheapest with insurance is £110.99 

[Darrell]

I thought you were taking it all along with you as hand luggage Rusty?

[damon500]

Thanks Rusty- I have weighed a starter, flywheel and bellhousing and total weight is 14.4kg  The bellhousing alone should only be around 3-4kg with packing but combined with flywheel would be around 10kg. Am looking into some options but it would seem sensible to send all 3 together- i'm assuming the insurance is needed to cover the cost of the freight!

[Rusty's Uncle]

I have shipped quite a few items to areas which are described by the Royal Mail "the Rest of the World" , those are areas that are outside of what is now regarded as the European Union. The best service to used is Airmail small packets but you can only go up to 2kgs. Cheaper than that if you are not in a hurry is the (no compensation) surface mail but that does take about 3 months. Where I have sent a number of items that in total are over 2kgs then they can be best sent as a number of small packets by the above services to get the best price.
All of the items you want are over the 2kgs so we have to look at Parcelforce Worldwide. There is an ecconomy service which I have used which is uninsured so if there is a total loss then you have had it ! Then there are a number of services above that , varying in speed , that will cover any loss.
Darrell's remark may seem flipant but I have taken parts to people when I have travelled around and some people have called in here for parts whilst they are on their travels especialy as I am not too far from London Heathrow  [-/
Found a starter motor by the way 

[Darrell]

I hang my head in shame...

I threw away two BIS Bellhousings a couple of years ago

[damon500]

Well who in their right mind would possibly ever want one of them?....

[Darrell]

Trouble is one offers stuff and nothing ever happens or they offer such a small value it isn't worth getting out of bed for..