Author Topic: air intake problem  (Read 4245 times)

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amam

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air intake problem
« on: April 06, 2016, 09:23:17 AM »
well not really a problem.....it isnt there?

my MCA kit car just has the cool air inlet pipe sat there at the moment



Now in the haynes manual it looks like there is channel above the engine bay which joins the two body vents together and then the large pipe connects to it, is this part of the bodywork or is it plastic thats removal?

if its part of the body i will have to make something up, any ideas on a post card  ;D
« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 10:01:38 AM by amam »

Da Londo

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Re: air intake problem
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2016, 09:36:20 AM »
It's mainly bodywork, could you lead the intake down? But it isn't that big a deal I believe, I've seen lots of 126's with weber carbs fitted and they all suck in hot air from the engine bay.

drcdb15

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Re: air intake problem
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2016, 12:12:50 PM »
Agree, not that big a deal. I have exactly the same situation on my CC Zero, which was built by Ladislav ("1973/126") in this Club. He drove the car across to Slovakia (I believe) and back like this, with no problem, and I've driven it also with no problem.

The build manual for the CC Zero simply says "tuck the pipe up somewhere so that it won't suck up dust and grit from the road, or thrown up by the wheels, which could damage the fan blades" (or words to that effect). The air for the carburettor is taken from this larger airstream, but that itself is filtered before entering the carb so that's OK. So that leaves the question: what to do about the big main pipe?

In my view, nothing! You don't want to reduce its capacity at all as it is the major cooling medium for the engine, so fitting any sort of adaptor or grille or putting in any tortuous bends to try to connect with the bodywork is not advised. The Fiat designers would have created the original bodywork channels to allow sufficient airflow for the cooling requirement, so unless you have access to some pretty fancy software and design facilities, *and* know what you're doing, I suggest the best thing is to leave well alone.

Some say that taking in hot air from within the engine bay is not good, since hot air will not cool the engine as well as cooler air from outside. Against that, in the Mediterranean, summer outside "cooler" air might be around 30 degrees or more, and these engines cope with that no problem. Also, the channelling of the intake air through the original car bodywork does constrict the airflow significantly - compare the cross-sectional area of the inlet grille to that of the large tube itself. Clearly the tube has a capacity far greater than the grille can pass, so although the intake air for the kit car may be warmer, there's a shedload more of it.

Taking all this in the round, my view is that all these factors pretty much cancel each other out, meaning you can safely drive the car for extended periods with the inlet tube just as it is in your photo. As Ladislav has demonstrated in practice.

drcdb15

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MCA Battery location
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2016, 12:32:26 PM »
On a separate issue, I notice the battery in your engine bay... is that the recommended MCA location?

I know batteries are typically placed in an engine bay, even in small GRP bodies such as the Kitten van that you have. But heat dissipation is a major issue with GRP bodies, and your battery seems to be rather close to the exhaust pipe, which is very definitely the hottest part of the bay. I wonder if you might like to consider insulating it with some thermal insulation such as this:

http://www.carinsulation.co.uk/product/1m-20mm-glassmat-hr-high-performance-thermal-acoustic-foam-insulation

Too hot an environment is generally not good for lead acid batteries: http://www.carcare.org/2012/03/hot-weather-the-true-culprit-behind-car-battery-trouble/

Any comment, Ladislav ?


Da Londo

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Re: air intake problem
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2016, 12:58:56 PM »

Some say that taking in hot air from within the engine bay is not good, since hot air will not cool the engine as well as cooler air from outside.

The only negative thing I can think of is that hot air has less oxygen. On standard engines this won't make a difference but when someone goes
trough the trouble of elaborating an engine with carbs, camshaft, flywheel, etc you might think they'd think about a decent inlet manifold for cool air,
but you don't see them often. But then again, those open carbs produce a lovely sound.

drcdb15

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Re: air intake problem
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2016, 03:41:20 PM »

Some say that taking in hot air from within the engine bay is not good, since hot air will not cool the engine as well as cooler air from outside.

The only negative thing I can think of is that hot air has less oxygen. On standard engines this won't make a difference but when someone goes
trough the trouble of elaborating an engine with carbs, camshaft, flywheel, etc you might think they'd think about a decent inlet manifold for cool air,
but you don't see them often. But then again, those open carbs produce a lovely sound.

I suspect the hot air/cold air argument is a red herring when it comes to the carburettor. And maybe also in the case of engine cooling. Engine cooling occurs through heat conduction through the metal of the cylinder head to the air, and through the metal of the piston to the oil below, thence to the metal of the sump, and through that to the air. The thermal conduction of these metals is a major factor in engine efficiency, and changing from a cast iron head to an aluminium alloy one has a far greater impact than the temperature of the ambient or cooling air. Similarly, fitting an oil cooler makes far more difference than any change in air temperature.

Combustion temperatures are around 800 degrees iirc, so whether the outside air is at 16 degrees or 35 degrees makes virtually no difference, the key step is the conduction of the combustion heat through the primary media, the metals and the oil. For air or water cooled engines, the ambient air is the last step in the chain.

As regards the density of the air (cooler air being more dense has a greater fuel holding capacity, as you rightly say) again I think there are self-cancelling factors. The colder air entering the carb will cool it down relative to warmer air. That means the fuel in the carb will be cooler, its vapour pressure will be lower and hence less will vaporise for any given airflow compared to a warmer situation. Yes, the air is *capable* of holding more fuel vapour, but that is of no significance if the fuel is so cold that less of it vaporises in the first place. So you get this catch 22, and the net effect is probably "pretty much the same either way".

Another factor is movement of the air in the engine bay. When you open the hood to look, I would imagine the car is parked up (if it's not, don't try this at home!!) so the air is pretty much static and feels quite warm to a human face peering in. But when the car is moving, there will be very significant turbulence, and the air temperature in the engine bay, certainly one that is largely open to the outside world, will largely be the same as outside. When you open a bonnet after driving for a while, the heat you feel is not hot air, it's radiant heat from the engine and exhaust system.

If you look at experience with changing air intakes, whether hot or cold, the key common factor is volumetric airflow (which is what you'd expect in a carburettor system which relies on a Venturi effect for fuel vaporisation). The actual temperature of the air (and its theoretical maximum fuel holding capacity) most likely has little effect:

http://www.autos.com/aftermarket-parts/cool-air-intake-vs-warm-air-intake

so I suspect the reason you don't often see cool air intakes per se (that is, a cool air source but all else such as flow rates unchanged) is because folks will have tried them and found they made no difference worth the effort. When you think the power increase you can get by fitting a Panda 30 head nearly DOUBLES the engine power simply by doubling the flow capacity of the inlet ports, you can understand why no one would waste time messing around with hot vs cold air intakes for what, maybe a sub-1% improvement.



Da Londo

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Re: air intake problem
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2016, 08:16:21 AM »
Very interesting explanation, thanks, this changes my view on things.

amam

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Re: MCA Battery location
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2016, 08:43:08 AM »
On a separate issue, I notice the battery in your engine bay... is that the recommended MCA location?

I know batteries are typically placed in an engine bay, even in small GRP bodies such as the Kitten van that you have. But heat dissipation is a major issue with GRP bodies, and your battery seems to be rather close to the exhaust pipe, which is very definitely the hottest part of the bay. I wonder if you might like to consider insulating it with some thermal insulation such as this:

http://www.carinsulation.co.uk/product/1m-20mm-glassmat-hr-high-performance-thermal-acoustic-foam-insulation

Too hot an environment is generally not good for lead acid batteries: http://www.carcare.org/2012/03/hot-weather-the-true-culprit-behind-car-battery-trouble/

Any comment, Ladislav ?

thank you for your post about the pipe

about the battery yes thats where MCA said you can fit the battery tray (it gave you a choice of there or in the front in a inaccessible place near the front wheel), it isnt properly in place yet its just sat there and im removing that exhaust as someone has made it with no backbox

1973/126

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Re: air intake problem
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2016, 08:41:07 AM »
 You can make an engine lid prop to keep it a bit open, so the hot air can escape easier, to keep things cooler in the engine bay.

 I`ve  seen an MCA coupe which had a proper air box tunnel built to guide the air from the side vents to that hose. Not sure if it was a factory option or a home made thing.
1972 Fiat 500
1980 Fiat 126

amam

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Re: air intake problem
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2016, 09:03:26 AM »
You can make an engine lid prop to keep it a bit open, so the hot air can escape easier, to keep things cooler in the engine bay.

 I`ve  seen an MCA coupe which had a proper air box tunnel built to guide the air from the side vents to that hose. Not sure if it was a factory option or a home made thing.

well from my road test photos ive seen the factor prototype convertible just had the air in take pipe tucked up to the passenger side vent, so i guess thats all they did

ive fitted some vents now too to vent the hot air from the engine bay