What kind of ignition is this?

[prumbo]

Hi all

After my Fiat 500 with 650 126 engine let me down at my wedding I am keen to get it fixed! It basically dies after running for about 20 minutes. Having repalced/ checked everything else I am starting to wonder if it is the ignition. Only problem is that looking inside the distributor I don't regognise it all. It is some kind of electronic ignition. If anyone can tell me what it is that would be great! It also doesn't appear to be earthed anywhere - should it be?? I am starting to think that the problem may be due to a lack of earth of the wrong kind of coil (I have added a photo of that too). Any help would be  really appreciated as it hasn't run properly since I bought it!

[Rusty's Uncle]

Hi , hope that the rest of the wedding went well 
From your pictures it looks like a new coil and an old style electronic ignition. Is that condenser still part of the circuit ? I am no expert but the latest "in distributor" electronic ignitions just have a red and a black wire that run back to the coil. I had 15 months of breaking down and changed every single part of the ignition circuit at least once in most cases . The coils seemed to overheat until I fitted the 123 system . My car would stop after about 15 to 20 mins then after about 10 to 15 mins would fire up and you are on your way again.

[Darrell]

I agree wiith Rusty about coils, I fried a bis coil I had used for years with a new electronic ingnition.

What you have pictured is what I have on mine now or similar. It should have three wires/contacts.
Live earth and the feed to the coil. If the earth is not visible then surely the earth is through the mounting bracket.
The centre rotating bit should have a magnet in it, when this passes the module it fires a signal to the coil.
If yours has no earth I'd think you are looking in the right direction.
I must check and see if I have the original instruction booklet for the 123 ignition and the card for the other one I have which is similar to yours.
I prefer the type you have pictured as it has no fancy programming and uses the original advance and retard set-up.
The thing I struggle with now is I like the 123 concept and don't want to give-up on it and hope to get it sorted out through the dealer.
I am experimenting with one with vacuum advance however this is on hold as with most of my projects as Gilly wants an extension to the house
I'd try coil as first stop

[prumbo]

Thanks for the great advice! I don't think the condenser is still part of it but will have a check.

Looks like I might be on the right track now which is a relief - the stoppin after 20 mins and being able to start again after another 20 mins is very familiar (and a very boring way of getting around).

Looks like the earth or coil might be the solution. I am tempted by the 123 system but as you say I would like to get this working first for my own sake (and to have a back up I can count on if I do fit the 123).

I will have a look this weekend and report back!

Thanks again.

[Darrell]

I'm guessing if it stops every 20 minutes one could plan the stops where one could charge admirers to look in it

I binned the 123 for this system

Condensers become redundant on both systems. Which is a good thing because they go wrong 

[smallcox]

Hi,

Just fitted something simular to my distributor. the module you show uses the hall effect which within that ring fitted to the distributor shaft has magnets to switch it. The condensor should not be connected and provided the correct module was fitted and matched to the ingnition resistance range then all should be well as they are supposed to be reliable. Does the coil fitted have the voltage on it, ie 6volts or 12volts?

[thepuddlejumper]

I had a similar problem with my triumph hard tail chop.  I fitted the coil in a beer can, to hide it, and used a spot of expandy foam to fix it in the can.  I would get 20-30 mins and the bike died eventually found the coil to hot to handle put it in a puddle to cool it down threw away the beer can cover and all was well.

Ralph

[prumbo]

Having taken it all out it looks like the system is an Ignitor from Pertronix - not sure if anyone has any experience of these? The coil fitted is a 12v one which when I took it to the shop to replace it was told it is for use with the original points set up so thought that might be the problem but looking at the pertronix site so it their ignitor system.

There is no earth with the system but the installation instuctions (also on their site) say to make sure the distributor ground wire is in place. Not sure if  those feature but another thing to check when I put it back in.

I think I will start by replacing the coil and see what happens??

[prumbo]

Just fitted a new coil and is now running better than ever!! 

I guess the old one must have been cooked and that is why it was getting worse and worse.

However the new coil I have fitted, after a 30 min drive, was really hot. Too hot to touch and I think hotter than parts of the engine! Is this normal or am I destined to repeat the same fate with this coil too? What would make a coil overheat? Could it just be the hot air from the engine vent?

[GTMaster]

Just noticed this: the red sticker on your ignition coil (in the picture) says that it can only be fitted to 12V and that you shouldn't use series/additional resistance... just in case you didn't know and that you might have used an additional resistance  (though the 126's didn't have them factory fitted) which may have  caused your problems...
The coil shouldn't be too hot to touch (just very warm) though it could be from the heat in the engine bay but i've never touched mine after a long drive before.

[124cso]

For what it's worth. I know not related, but my Fiat 124 Spyder has an electronic pointsless ignition system (factory) and it's coil is the conventional type but is mounted in a big finned aluminium heatsink, again a factory item.
I could take a pic but am not sure how to load pics on here.

[RicePuddin]

I was told that the position (vertical or sideways) you mount a coil is important. Something to do with the oil cooling the internals. This needs confirmation as I was never able to get a proper explanation and would actually like one if anyone knows.

[124cso]

I didn't know that they still put oil in coils these days. Thought that was done away with by modern insulating materials & electronics ?

GTMaster mentioned additional resistance but says 126s did not have this. I cannot find such on my car, but the Haynes manual revised in 1987 to cover the 652cc, clearly shows a ballast resister mounted on the front panel, above the battery, page 127 picture 6.9.

[GTMaster]

GTMaster mentioned additional resistance but says 126s did not have this. I cannot find such on my car, but the Haynes manual revised in 1987 to cover the 652cc, clearly shows a ballast resister mounted on the front panel, above the battery, page 127 picture 6.9.

Interesting....

I was told that the position (vertical or sideways) you mount a coil is important. Something to do with the oil cooling the internals. This needs confirmation as I was never able to get a proper explanation and would actually like one if anyone knows.

You're right that some coils can only be mounted in a particular position (usually vertically) so that the oil/fluid in it can cool it properly (and doesn't flow away into a different position). It depends on what sort of coil you have.