Club126UK
Fiat 126 Chat => Fiat 126 Chat => Topic started by: sahin261 on May 31, 2015, 07:50:58 PM
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Hello all, I would like to say that: We are succesful about electronic ignition on my friend's 126Bis. I will tomorrow put some pictures here! :D :)
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WOW :D great work! You have succeeded where others have failed lol how did you do it?
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Very interested to know how. More details please. Love the bis by the way. Simon.
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Yes please do tell, i'm very interested to :good:
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In fact, in Ä°stanbul/Turkey one man was doing electornic ignition for 650 (air cooled) and 700Bis. He did for my friend's car.
tomorrow I'm going to take some pictures from his car :D and I'm hoping that it will be great source for who wants electronic ingintion on bis' :)
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Very good news.
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Here some pictures from electronic igniton. Even I learned that this system is using by around 50 bis'. Also he is doing nanoflex* ignitoin. (*cancelling distribitor and putting sensor on crank shaft)
(http://i.hizliresim.com/YBVroz.jpg)
(http://i.hizliresim.com/mPR10V.jpg)
(http://i.hizliresim.com/2gP8bv.jpg)
(http://i.hizliresim.com/BMGDk9.jpg)
(http://i.hizliresim.com/ZDn70A.jpg)
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Excellent work! :D it actually looks quite simple to install ? Which kit is it?
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Thats good :good: i would love to do this to ours. as gadge said what kit is that please.
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I think it is accuspark but it has to be modified.
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Yes accuspark. Electronic ignition is making more quite and makes Bis stronger. My bis has not electronic ignition engine sound is more than this.
first starts are easy, working fast. Working quite. I will later put videos ;)
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I'm preparing videos. You can also listen engine voice with electrionic ignition. Really not a lot noisy. :)
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Even I learned that this system is using by around 50 bis'. Also he is doing nanoflex* ignitoin. (*cancelling distribitor and putting sensor on crank shaft)
That is very interesting. But what improvement will it make to the accuracy of the timing? Changing from a mechanical contact breaker which can bounce, wear and corrode to a contactless optical or electronic/magnetic trigger obviously makes a very substantial improvement without major modification.
However, going from an electronic system on the distributor to an electronic system on the crankshaft seems likely to be a fairly major modification - so what will the benefit be?
Well, I must assume that the electronic systems will be identical in performance - why would they not be? They are both electronic, they both use the same components, wires and so on. So that part of the system should have an identical performance.
So where can a crankshaft-based system improve on a distributor-based system? It seems to me the only areas where there are "losses" on the distributor system can be (1) on the gear meshing between the crankshaft (or camshaft) and the distributor shaft, and (2) torque or twisting losses in the distributor shaft.
Taking the second of these, since the distributor shaft is a rod of steel, it seems to me extremely likely that any twisting of it under the driving stresses of the engine will, although theoretically possible, be so small as to be undetectable. So I cannot see any advantage in eliminating this (theoretical) loss.
With regard to the crankshaft or camshaft gear drive, again these are highly accurately machined and hardened steel parts, running in oil, and under very little strain from the 'effort' of turning the distributor shaft. How much of an engine's power is taken by the work required to drive the distributor shaft
? Again, I suspect this is immeasurably small. So the losses in this gear drive will come in effect only from any 'slack' in the meshing of the drive gear and the driven gear.
However, with the engine running normally, any such slack is taken up as the gears initially accelerate up to running speed. As the engine continues to run under normal conditions, there will be no slack as the driving gear will constantly be pushing on the driven gear, making any variation in the constancy of the rotation immeasurably small.
I would predict, therefore, that in practice a direct crankshaft system will not be detectably different in performance from a distributor based system. In other words, a large amount of engineering re-design, effort and expense for absolutely no improvement at all in engine performance.
On highly tuned and ultra-high precision racing engines there might be some slight advantage (for example, the overall rotational mass will be reduced since the distributor shaft will not be present), but on a high tolerance mass produced unit like the Fiat 126 engine ? I very much doubt it. Have I missed something?
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Here a video, 126Bis with simple electronic ingition. (the same car in that pictures)
https://youtu.be/wKA1TBSCwmA
https://youtu.be/v2IhzaJ1pbQ
This Bis has nanoflex ignition. No distiribitor. Sensor on crankshaft (as you can see at 00:38 no distribitor :) )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KeTDdgRj6I
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Even I learned that this system is using by around 50 bis'. Also he is doing nanoflex* ignitoin. (*cancelling distribitor and putting sensor on crank shaft)
That is very interesting. But what improvement will it make to the accuracy of the timing? Changing from a mechanical contact breaker which can bounce, wear and corrode to a contactless optical or electronic/magnetic trigger obviously makes a very substantial improvement without major modification.
However, going from an electronic system on the distributor to an electronic system on the crankshaft seems likely to be a fairly major modification - so what will the benefit be?
Well, I must assume that the electronic systems will be identical in performance - why would they not be? They are both electronic, they both use the same components, wires and so on. So that part of the system should have an identical performance.
So where can a crankshaft-based system improve on a distributor-based system? It seems to me the only areas where there are "losses" on the distributor system can be (1) on the gear meshing between the crankshaft (or camshaft) and the distributor shaft, and (2) torque or twisting losses in the distributor shaft.
Taking the second of these, since the distributor shaft is a rod of steel, it seems to me extremely likely that any twisting of it under the driving stresses of the engine will, although theoretically possible, be so small as to be undetectable. So I cannot see any advantage in eliminating this (theoretical) loss.
With regard to the crankshaft or camshaft gear drive, again these are highly accurately machined and hardened steel parts, running in oil, and under very little strain from the 'effort' of turning the distributor shaft. How much of an engine's power is taken by the work required to drive the distributor shaft
? Again, I suspect this is immeasurably small. So the losses in this gear drive will come in effect only from any 'slack' in the meshing of the drive gear and the driven gear.
However, with the engine running normally, any such slack is taken up as the gears initially accelerate up to running speed. As the engine continues to run under normal conditions, there will be no slack as the driving gear will constantly be pushing on the driven gear, making any variation in the constancy of the rotation immeasurably small.
I would predict, therefore, that in practice a direct crankshaft system will not be detectably different in performance from a distributor based system. In other words, a large amount of engineering re-design, effort and expense for absolutely no improvement at all in engine performance.
On highly tuned and ultra-high precision racing engines there might be some slight advantage (for example, the overall rotational mass will be reduced since the distributor shaft will not be present), but on a high tolerance mass produced unit like the Fiat 126 engine ? I very much doubt it. Have I missed something?
Yes! you are so right. With distributor or without... hm. In fact it doesnt matter so much on performance. Of course it does matter. But we cant understand. So small improves with nanoflex. normal electronic ignitoin must be on Bis. Because, maximum fault comes from this: http://image5.sahibinden.com/photos/49/26/59/108492659l7p.jpg
But I think: Nanoflex ignition, cancelling distribitor is better opinion. ignition timing advance is becoming automatic with sensors. :) I hope I could explain.
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So the automatic timing advance is the main benefit of crank sensor ignition over a distributor.
So as I see it Sahins 1st system does away with the points + condenser and the problems that they cause.
His 2nd system goes one stage further by doing away with the distributor altogether therefore getting rid of the centrifugal bob weights which is a crude system anyway and also the vacuum diaphragm which frequently fails.
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Once the engine has had all the sensors fitted, are we close to seeing the first Bis with Fuel Injection and an ECU? :P
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I think it's great work! The points system on mine has let me down no end of times and I even had to stump up £90 for a new distributor altogether so going to contactless ignition or even distributor-less ignition is a great idea and I commend sahins for showing us one that actually works because let's face it we have all seen them advertised and we all think "why can't they do one for my BIS"
Keep up the good work :D
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The engine is running very quiete indeed.
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Once the engine has had all the sensors fitted, are we close to seeing the first Bis with Fuel Injection and an ECU? :P
You can see something like ECU in this video, 00:30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KeTDdgRj6I.
They are modernizng Bis' engines. Maybe They are working on fuel injection and cancelling carburator. ;D
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So the automatic timing advance is the main benefit of crank sensor ignition over a distributor.
So as I see it Sahins 1st system does away with the points + condenser and the problems that they cause.
His 2nd system goes one stage further by doing away with the distributor altogether therefore getting rid of the centrifugal bob weights which is a crude system anyway and also the vacuum diaphragm which frequently fails.
Well I did say "am I missing something?", and you are of course correct, I had completely overlooked the timing advance. Now it's about 30 years since I last fitted an electronic ignition kit to a car, but my recollection is that the electronic 'black box' took care of the timing advance. I can't recall if I just took out the points and condenser, or if I also took out the bob weights as well - but I don't recall the electronic system relying on the mechanical bob weights for ignition advance, that would seem to be an obvious further source of mechanical variability. My recollection is that the electronic kit simply used the rotating part of what was left in the distributor as a trigger to indicate engine position, and the electronics worked out the timing, including the advance/retard.
I also recall from my motorcycling days (even *more* than thirty years ago!) that for a twin cylinder air cooled engine (which happened to be a Triumph T100 rather than a Fiat 126) the timing very rapidly got to full advance by about 1000rpm. In other words, variation of the timing was only required for initial starting and at idling. For virtually all normal running it was always at maximum advance - in which case the function of the mechanical bob-weights was anyway very limited.
I don't know if that also holds true for the 126. The Triumph motorcycle engine was iirc based on a 1932 Edward Turner design, so maybe timing theory and practice has moved on a bit since those days ::)
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In other words, variation of the timing was only required for initial starting and at idling. For virtually all normal running it was always at maximum advance - in which case the function of the mechanical bob-weights was anyway very limited.
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I think you can see this at about 0:12 in Sahin's video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKA1TBSCwmA&feature=youtu.be.
As the throttle is blipped, you can see the plate in the distributor rotate very slightly, maybe 5-10 degrees, but that's it, it is only a small change in timing, and then I would guess it is on full advance and stays there no matter how much faster the engine speed is increased.
I agree that getting rid of the mechanical advance/retard is useful in principle, but I still wonder, given that for most running the advance/retard mechanism is not actually doing anything, it is in effect fixed in the fully advanced position, whether the incremental improvement in performance will actually be noticeable. I think the biggest improvement by far comes from replacing HOW the ignition spark is triggered, rather than WHEN it is triggered.
Nonetheless, as others have said, it seems to be excellent work and is to be welcomed :welcome
As for commercial availability of these systems, is there any comment from our regular parts suppliers ?
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in my opinoin the man reason is reliability, i have made a semi-electronic ignition where it uses the points purely as a signal rarther than putting current through them causing issues (i do know you still get frictional wear but this is minimal) and then the current is generated seperatly therfore you do not realy have dwell issues making sure you have a strong spark all the time (and i have slightly uped the voltage)
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What system are you using then? Did you buy it or is it home made? How did you up the voltage?
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it is home made.
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I think this would be the same mod as Jokke described here, http://club126uk.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=7958.60. Without talking about the sensor that is.
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.
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In other words, variation of the timing was only required for initial starting and at idling. For virtually all normal running it was always at maximum advance - in which case the function of the mechanical bob-weights was anyway very limited.
I think you can see this at about 0:12 in Sahin's video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKA1TBSCwmA&feature=youtu.be.
As the throttle is blipped, you can see the plate in the distributor rotate very slightly, maybe 5-10 degrees, but that's it, it is only a small change in timing, and then I would guess it is on full advance and stays there no matter how much faster the engine speed is increased.
I agree that getting rid of the mechanical advance/retard is useful in principle, but I still wonder, given that for most running the advance/retard mechanism is not actually doing anything, it is in effect fixed in the fully advanced position, whether the incremental improvement in performance will actually be noticeable. I think the biggest improvement by far comes from replacing HOW the ignition spark is triggered, rather than WHEN it is triggered.
Nonetheless, as others have said, it seems to be excellent work and is to be welcomed :welcome
As for commercial availability of these systems, is there any comment from our regular parts suppliers ?
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Yes for centrifugal advance, but Vacuum advance goes wrong frequently too.
Sahin's system does away with them both. Reliability could be potentially improved.
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Forgot to say its a bis dizzy with an AccuSpark kit :D
(http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p161/suzuki998/Fiat%20126/20150610_200251_zpsy17n554l.jpg)
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I got an unbranded one off ebay, it worked for six months then I had strange backfires and it eventually stopped completely:(
Learn from my mistake and keep a spare set of points in the car so you can change it back on the side of the road if it fails.. Mine ended up on a tow truck.
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Learn from my mistake and keep a spare set of points in the car so you can change it back on the side of the road if it fails.. Mine ended up on a tow truck.
Thats not a good way to get home bud :(
Ive played it crafty and i bought a spare dizzy from a member on here and converted that so i still have a standard dizzy with points as backup ;)
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These are great.
I had one of those fancy ones which has dip switches and curves, it did my head in...litterally overheated the car and did the head in!!
The one I have like this is brilliant.
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There is a more 'expensive' kit to fit directly to a 126 Bis, from
http://www.distributordoctor.com/
I emailed the owner {Martin Jay] recently, and he has a kit for a Hall effect sensor, rotor, etc and fitting kit, for £131.82 + vat.
I suspect it will be made up by him to suit.
I have used one of his kits on a Ford sidevalve engine of mine...and it is excellent.
The kit comes with hall sensor, ring, and mounting bracketry, probably meaning, a new base plate...all ready to fit.
{Certainly that's what I got for my Ford engine]....although the Ford item didn't cost as much as the above 126 ....probably a case of, numbers?
Good service, IMHO....and the items are top quality. [including some heat resistant grease for insulation...important on the Ford]
This firm also has produced [ in the uk] their own rotor arms for many applications, given the rubbish that has been coming out of China these past decades, for older vehicles]...with their high carbon cheap plastics. [leading to mysterious arcing & misfires]
If going the route of a crank sensor ..then it is possible to fit a completely mappable module, thereby tailoring the advance curve to entirely suit one's engine, with al its mods [Megajolt, for example??}
But that involves laptops, something I'm not entirely comfortable with. :(