Club126UK
Fiat 126 Chat => Fiat 126 Mechanical Problem Solving => Topic started by: Bambino126 on April 16, 2015, 04:50:10 PM
-
My clutch has been slipping all week and making funny noises so I decided to pull the engine out of my BIS.
Got the engine out this morning and discovered that the clutch is covered in engine oil.
So I guess that the crankshaft rear oil seal is leaking on to it.
Can someone explain to me how to change this seal?
Many thanks ;)
-
Just to check , is it engine oil or did you recently fill the gearbox? If it is the rear oil seal then you should have a good oil smere on the engine side of the flywheel. Was the engine oil pressure OK? Was it loosing oil?
If the rear main bearing is on the way out then that would effect the seal . If it is just the seal then you need to remove the flywheel, take care to mark position on crank which is vital on a Bis, then in theory you could dig out the seal and press in a new one although it might be better to take out the rear main bearing housing as you can check its condition and fit a new seal on the bench :)
-
Yes it looks and smells like engine oil rather than gearbox oil. The back of the flywheel has it on too, coming out it straight lines from the center, obviously being flung out by centrifugal force from the spinning of the engine. Oil pressure seems ok. I think its leaking slowly, but has been for a long time, which would explain a few drips of oil underneath it every time I park up.
So with the seal, do I just lever it out with a screwdriver, or is there a special way of removing it?
I imagine with the new seal you just drive it in with a big socket behind it?
-
So I tried to remove the oil seal in situ with a hook, but got nowhere - it was too firmly attached. So decided to take Rusty's advice and remove the whole rear main bearing housing. I'm glad I did, for 2 reasons: Firstly it was much easier to collapse the oil seal in to the middle with a hammer and screwdriver and then it fell out.
Secondly, when the bearing housing came out there was a big sealing 'O-ring' going around it that was in bad condition. On reflection it was more likely that this that was leaking the oil, than the actual rear oil seal for the crank which still looked in good condition. Anyway I changed both of them to be on the safe side. I'm afraid I didn't take a photo of the big O-ring, but if you're not sure which one I mean I can say it looks almost exactly like the big O-ring that you change when you clean out your oil filter centrifuge thing. Just a bit thinner than that one.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f101/tashman_/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG0206.jpg) (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/tashman_/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG0206.jpg.html)
While it was out I cleaned the rear bearing carrier and inspected it. See what you think? Looks a bit worn to me, and there is a chip of metal actually missing from it visible in the picture.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f101/tashman_/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG0205.jpg) (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/tashman_/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG0205.jpg.html)
-
what is the milleage of engine ? Yes, looks a bit worn, you can buy a new one.
-
a bit worn is a understatement it is completely dead.
-
That bearing is layered and needs replacing. Chances are that the front one will be the same too. I would invest in some new ones if I were you. There around £50 for the pair. I just bough two myself
-
I should have new rear bearing of crankshaft in my stock and also new set of gaskets with oil seals :)
(http://iv.pl/images/15584390682081099307_thumb.jpg) (http://iv.pl/viewer.php?file=15584390682081099307.jpg)
-
Surely that cannot be rust on that main bearing? Where did you get your bearings from Gadge? Piotross, do you have undersize main bearings, if so what size? :)
-
I got mine from German ebay
-
I have nominal size
-
quote Rusty's Uncle
Surely that cannot be rust on that main bearing?
its not rust it is copper.
-
Because of the oil leak everything was filthy so I cleaned and degreased the bearing carrier to take the photo. The degreaser made the copper change the funny colour you can in the picture. But that rubbed off and I re-oiled it before putting it back on with a new oil seal and a new o-ring. I was more concerned about the little copper chip that fell out when I opened it. You can just see the chip hole in the photo.
Anyway I put everything back together with the new clutch and the car drove great again. The clutch bite point is deeper, and the car pulls away more cleanly with no clutch slipping.
Great!
Or so I thought....
50 miles later the 'whine' you get in 1st gear with these cars got much louder.
I tried to get the car home so that I could take it apart again and have a look at it.
Further on 1st gear just made a grinding noise and wouldn't transmit drive any more.
A few miles later 2nd started grinding intermittently then third. Almost home, coming off the duel carriageway the lights changed to red and I had to stop. At this point the gearstick went solid and wouldn't select anything. Just wedged in the 4th position, and just mechanical grinding noises when you bring the clutch up.
As I was blocking the exit slip of the M25, a helpful chap gave me a tow to a lay-by, but even the 200 maters to the lay-by it was grinding the box all the way there, even with the engine off and my foot on the clutch. The wheels were turning the broken gears in the gearbox I suppose.
While waiting for the RAC's flatbed truck to take it home I had a look underneath.
Looks as though the gearbox casing itself has fractured open and all the oil has come out
:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:
New gearbox time I guess as you can't even do an exchange if the whole casing is broken.
-
You can see the crack here.
(http://s22.postimg.org/663czyks1/crack.jpg)
-
Wow not seen that before :o
I bought a new Bis in 1989 and the gearbox started to fail before it was 3 years old after about 30,000 miles. It started with 2nd gear just disappearing then got worse as I continued to use the car. I agreed a trade in deal on a new Peugeot 106 telling the salesman the gearbox had a fault. The salesman said that as long as the car was driveable the deal was OK. On the day of the trade in the gearbox got so bad I lost all forward gears and ended up reversing the car to the garage, parked it up and did the deal :)
I have got some gearbox casings here and a heap of internals if you are thinking about rebuilding the gearbox.
-
Bugger, that's not good :(
-
that is a horrible crack. have you been able to see what has caused it to go like that, its not a common site.
-
Thanks for the offer Rusty, but I've just bought a 2nd hand Bis gearbox off Ebay for £130. It should come tomorrow. I'll take the broken one out today and see what went wrong with it. Think I found the leak though!
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f101/tashman_/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG0216.jpg) (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/tashman_/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG0216.jpg.html)
-
I've taken the gearbox out now, but a bit disappointed to see that the bell housing has got oil in it again. I've only done 50 miles since I changed the clutch and cleaned out the bell housing. While the engine was out I changed the crankshaft rear oil seal and the O-ring that goes around the rear main bearing carrier.
I know that its engine oil in there not gearbox oil because I recently changed my engine oil but haven't changed my gearbox oil for a long time. The oil that leaked into the bell housing was golden brown not black so it must be engine oil.
I'm starting to doubt myself now because I've looked at the Fiat parts diagrams and they show a 6-hole paper gasket rather than an O-ring sealing the bearing carrier to the engine so have I fitted the wrong part?
So I ask you BIS experts, should the rear bearing carrier be sealed to the engine crankcase with....
this?
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f101/tashman_/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG0217.jpg) (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/tashman_/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG0217.jpg.html)
or with this?
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f101/tashman_/gasket.png) (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/tashman_/media/gasket.png.html)
-
The only reason I fitted the black O-ring is because when I disassembled the bearing carrier, a large O-ring came out, and in bad condition, but the car's previous owner may have fitted the wrong part and I have simply copied his mistake. :-
-
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f101/tashman_/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG0205.jpg)
By the look of the rear bearing cap nearly all of the white metal has worn away, The oil will be leaking out of the new seal because of the play in the old bearing.
-
Arr that explains it then. Thanks Pete.
I have ordered a new whole bearing assembly now. But still confused which type of seal to install it with?
-
What Pete says may be true but bearings that are nicely "run in" can look similar and if the bearing was that knackered you would probably have had no oil pressure . The paper gasket was used on the 500s up until the later 126s so I think the Bis would be the o-ring. In a full gasket set there are two large o-rings. The thicker one is for the oil filter. Before I realised this I once fitted the thin one in the filter and ended up spraying the engine bay with nice clean oil :$
From memory there should be a chamfer on the crankcase which is designed to accommodate the o-ring and form a seal. I have also come across cracked main bearing housings.
-
What Pete says may be true but bearings that are nicely "run in" can look similar and if the bearing was that knackered you would probably have had no oil pressure.
Not sure i agree with that statement :$ The white metal tin/zinc layer is there to reduce friction and heat,
This was my rear bearing which was running without loss of oil pressure but was leaking oil through the new oil seal..
-
Wow that bearing looks much better condition than my one. I have ordered a brand new one which will arrive on Monday. There was the option to buy undersized bearings but I went for the standard size because I hope I won't need to have the crank re-ground. I hope this will be ok.
So the conclusion on the seal is to use the O-ring style not the paper one. Thanks Rusty. Shame I just ordered the paper one Doh!
-
Does anyone know where I can get the "thin" O-ring from? I've used my last one, and don't want to buy another whole gasket set for £40 just to get one O-ring! Does anyone know a supplier that does them individually? Or if I fitted the paper one would it still be oil tight?
Thanks again for the advice guys. ;)
-
Does anyone know where I can get the "thin" O-ring
Think I know a man ;D
Just pulled one out of one of my gasket sets. Out of interest I offered it up to a main bearing housing and I can see that if it does not seat flat then it could easily be damaged by the sharp edges on the bearing housing. I think that I would hold it in place with a dab of instant gasket when you refit the bearing.
PMAPM&ICP
That stands for ping me a pm & I can post :)
-
For my O-Rings and shaft seals I use Fluid Power Equipment really helpful and no order too small
I use the Doncaster branch as they seem to have more of a idea
http://www.fpe-ltd.co.uk/default.aspx
-
Does anyone know where I can get the "thin" O-ring
Think I know a man ;D
Just pulled one out of one of my gasket sets. Out of interest I offered it up to a main bearing housing and I can see that if it does not seat flat then it could easily be damaged by the sharp edges on the bearing housing. I think that I would hold it in place with a dab of instant gasket when you refit the bearing.
PMAPM&ICP
That stands for ping me a pm & I can post :)
Thanks Rusty PM sent :D
-
O-ring sent :)
-
My last question is this: How far are you supposed to drive the Crank Oil Seal into the bearing carrier?
When I took the bearing carrier out, the last person had stopped when the seal was just flush with the top of the carrier. Is that the right thing to do?
Just to see how far they go, on my dead bearing I drove this one down all the way. It stops 6 mm below the top.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f101/tashman_/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG0219.jpg) (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/tashman_/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG0219.jpg.html)
Also here is a pic of my new bearing. Seems to have the 'white metal' people were talking about
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f101/tashman_/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG0220.jpg) (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/tashman_/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG0220.jpg.html)
-
Flush is good :D I usually smear some hylomar or hermatite round the edge and press it in :thumbup
-
Thanks Pete