Club126UK
Fiat 126 Chat => Tuning & Customising 126 Models => Topic started by: poxxxy on December 28, 2014, 02:30:39 PM
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I'm considering it... hard... :D.
Perhaps an IHI31 or VZ21 but i'm thinking they might even be a little too small. The hotside intake is pretty damn small at only 25mm and the exhaust side at 28mm...
26mm outlet from the compressor.
Considering 1.25" exhaust port outlets... hmmmm.
The twin air turbo looks interesting to and a cast manifold adapter would be nice. lol.
Tempted to even go EFI with a 28mm or 34mm throttle body after coming across the ecotrons kits which sound very interesting! :D.
I think I need a chat with smallcox :D.
https://www.ecotrons.com/products/small_engine_rhb31_vz21_turbocharger/.
Where to take the oil feed from the block to... :D.
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Poxxxy you definitely need a chat with Smallcox, then he can tell you a nice little story about two broken cranks :o
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Oh but the sound of those stories sounds intreguing... and myself as boring as I am, would love to be able to tell such stories haha :D. I need a spare BIS engine really to work with off the car... but i'm thinking 45hp target here at the moment with one of those snail size turbos. Not 80+... and also... the RPM I don't plan on going much higher than 4000 RPM as to save the crank a little... I wonder how much the crank casing holds up :D.
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Smallcox used the turbo from the 1700 td Izuzu engined Astra/Cav because you don't need complicated electronics to run it ;)
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The Bis crankshaft is reputed to be stronger than the standard air cooled so I would say give it a go :)
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hmmm... I think that cheap ihi turbo might be off the cards after doing some compressor map calculations... the more expensive garret gt0632sz certainly looks like it could be a solution though after plotting some points. Running without an intercooler also seems to require pressure ratios that are out of scope due to the temperature increase.
0.7 liter engine generates 25 ps at 4500 rpm and its max torque value is 49 nm at 2000 rpm
45*12*.55/60 =
540*(0.0091666666666667) = 4.950000000000018lb/min compressor map requirement for airfuel ratio of 12-1 and 45bhp target.
Where:
· MAPreq = Manifold Absolute Pressure (psia) required to meet the horsepower target
· Wa = Airflowactual(lb/min)
· R = Gas Constant = 639.6
· Tm = Intake Manifold Temperature (degrees F)
· VE = Volumetric Efficiency
· N = Engine speed (RPM)
· Vd = engine displacement (Cubic Inches, convert from liters to CI by multiplying by 61.02, ex. 2.0 liters *
61.02 = 122 CI)
EXAMPLE:
To continue the example above, let’s consider a 2.0 liter engine with the following description:
· Wa = 44 lb/min as previously calculated
· Tm = 130 degrees F
· VE = 92% at peak power
· N = 7200 RPM
· Vd = 2.0 liters * 61.02 = 122 CI
Wa = 4.950000000000018 lb/min
Tm = 130
VE = .88%
N = 4500 RPM
Vd = .704 * 61.02 = 42.958CI
4.95 * 639.6 * (460+130)
/
.88 * 4500/2 * 42.95
4.95 * 639.6 * 590
/
.88 * 4500/2 * 42.95
1867951.8
/
.88 * 4500/2 * 42.95
1867951.8
/
.88 * 2250 * 42.95
1867951.8
/
.88 * 2250 * 42.95
1867951.8
/
85041
= 21.96530849825378 psia
-14.7 psia
= 7.265308498253783 psig boost
44* 639.6 * (460+130)
/
.92 * 7200/2 * 122
44* 639.6 * 590
/
.92 * 7200/2 * 122
16604016
/
.92 * 3600 * 122
16604016
/
404064
= 41.09 PSI
= 41.1 psia (remember, this is absolute pressure. Subtract atmospheric pressure to get gauge pressure (aka
boost):
41.1 psia – 14.7 psia (at sea level) = 26.4 psig boost = required manifold pressure required to meet the horsepower/flow target. - intercooled.
44* 639.6 * (460+300)
/
.92 * 7200/2 * 122
44* 639.6 * 760
/
.92 * 7200/2 * 122
21388224
/
.92 * 3600 * 122
21388224
/
404064
= 52.93 psia
52.93 - 14.7 psia = 38.23 psig boost - non intercooled
With Mass Flow and Manifold Pressure, we are nearly ready to plot the data on the compressor map. The next
step is to determine how much pressure loss exists between the compressor and the manifold. The best way to
do this is to measure the pressure drop with a data acquisition system, but many times that is not practical.
Depending upon flow rate, charge air cooler characteristics, piping size, number/quality of the bends, throttle
body restriction, etc., the plumbing pressure drop can be estimated. This can be 1 psi or less for a very well
designed system. On certain restrictive OEM setups, especially those that have now higher-than-stock airflow
levels, the pressure drop can be 4 psi or greater.
For our examples we will assume that there is a 2 psi loss. So to determine the Compressor Discharge Pressure
(P2c), 2 psi will be added to the manifold pressure calculated above
26.4psig intercooled
38.23 psig non intercooled
+ 2 psi pressure drop from compressor to inlet
compressor dischrage pressure = 28.4 intercooled
compressor discharge pressure = 40.23 non intercooled
pressure ratio inlet depression of 1 psi
example: sealevel 14.7 psia
subtract 1 psi pressure loss from ambient pressure to determine compressor inlet pressure
= 13.7
intercooled pressure ratio = 28.4/13.70 = 2.073
nonintercooled pressure ratio = 40.23/13.70 = 2.936
4.95lb/min required
2.073 compressor ratio
2.936 compressor ratio non intercooled high temp
GT0632SZ
Turbo Compressor Turbine
Turbo PN CHRA PN Ind Whl Dia(mm) Exd Whl Dia(mm) Trim A/R Whl Dia(mm) Trim A/R
789997-1 800039-1 22.63 32.00 50 0.32 30.00 72 0.18
GT1241 Turbo PN756068-1 / CHRA cartridge PN 757864-1
Turbo Compressor Turbine
Turbo PN CHRA PN Ind Whl Dia(mm) Exd Whl Dia(mm) Trim A/R Whl Dia(mm) Trim A/R
756068-1 757864-1 29.00 41.00 50 0.33 35.50 72 0.43
Calc peak torque point on map
Intercooled
28.4 * .88 * (2000/2) * 42.958CI
/
639.6 * (460+130)
1073606.336
/
377364
2.845015253177304 lb/min
Non-Intercooled
40.23 * .88 * (2000/2) * 42.958CI
/
639.6 * (460+300)
1520533.08
/
486096
3.128051002271156 lb/min
I'm undecided on whether to go for EFI (which will be a nice headache to figure out when it comes to getting it running) or try and pressurize the float chamber somehow on a carb using the turbo. I'm sure someone who's turbo'd a carb'd NA car before can help out here. There would be some kind of need for a fuel pump regulating device also as boost is increased perhaps... but I can't think exactly what they are called...
The actual cost and simplicity of a throttle body/injector setup supplied by ecotrons doesn't sound too unreasonable though when you consider the cost of Weber carbs :D.
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I didn't feel too comfortable with the idea of running more than twice atmospheric pressures inside the little lancia unit... but it might give a more stable turbo performance if I try and aim for a higher bhp figure... screw it... i'll just for fun put the calcs in for 80bhp and see how it goes lol. May suite a GT1241 compressor map perfectly then :D.
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Hmmmm... so i've spent the evening trying to see what figures seem to correlate with the compressor maps...
a 45-50bhp intercooled setup on the GT0632SZ will see the turbo working at 60-68% efficiency would appear to offer the most stable solution and road performance with quick spool and well within the turbos most efficient point. (about .7 bar increase)
60bhp intercooled setup should see the turbo working within the efficiency area of around 62-66% when looking at the supplied compressor map for a Garrett GT0632SZ but it is fairly close to the surge line so may be a little unstable at lower rpm although pressure ratio will also drop below this point which should compensate. (about 1.21 bar increase)
70bhp the turbo probably chokes up a little too much and will end up producing more heat than extra power and again the torque point is a little close to the surge line being right on the edge... it may be useable if the engine could take it! (about 1.55 bar increase)
Non intercooled setups with the GT0632SZ you are probably looking at a 40bhp setup being useable but intake temps will need to be monitored along with egt's ideally. 45bhp would be easily achieved with PWM control of the turbo if possible to produce less boost at lower rpms. (about .92-1.14bar increase)
Looking at the IHI RHB31 compressor map it appears to be a much less capable turbo but could produce some good gains on a budget and man points for sure. Looking at the compressor map I guess a 35bhp intercooled setup might do ok?
37bhp intercooled:
Pressure Ratio: 1.464
Airflow 4500rpm = 4.07lb/min
Airflow 2000rpm = 2lb/min
37bhp non-intercooled:
Pressure Ratio: 1.844
Airflow 4500rpm = 4.07lb/min
Airflow 2000rpm = 2.16lb/min
40bhp intercooled:
Pressure Ratio: 1.572
Airflow 4500rpm = 4.4lb/min
Airflow 2000rpm = 2lb/min
40bhp non intercooled:
Pressure Ratio: 1.981
Airflow 4500rpm = 4.4lb/min
Airflow 2000rpm = 2.11lb/min
45bhp intercooled:
Pressure Ratio: 1.749
Airflow 4500rpm = 4.95lb/min
Airflow 2000rpm = 2.4lb/min
45bhp non intercooled:
Pressure Ratio: 2.211
Airflow 4500rpm = 4.95lb/min
Airflow 2000rpm = 2.36lb/min
50bhp intercooled:
Pressure Ratio: 1.927
Airflow 4500rpm = 5.5lb/min
Airflow 2000rpm = 2.65lb/min
60bhp intercooled:
Pressure Ratio: 2.283
Airflow 4500rpm = 6.6lb/min
Airflow 2000rpm = 3.13lb/min
70bhp intercooled:
Pressure Ratio: 2.64
Airflow 4500rpm = 7.7lb/min
Airflow 2000rpm = 3.62lb/min
75bhp intercooled:
Pressure Ratio: 2.82
Airflow 4500rpm = 8.25lb/min
Airflow 2000rpm = 3.87lb/min
37bhp intercooled calcs
37*12*.55/60 = 4.07lb/min
Calculate required manifold pressure required to meet the horsepower, or flow target
4.07 * 639.6 * (460+130)
/
.88 * 4500/2 * 42.958
1535871.48
/
85056.84
= 18.057
psia (absolute)
add 2 psi for loss on intake system
20.057 psia
/
13.7 psi
1.464 pressure ratio
torque point
20.057 * .88 * (2000/2) * 42.958CI
/
639.6 * (460+130)
758215.57328
/
377364
= 2lb per min
37bhp calcs nonintercooled
37*12*.55/60 = 4.07lb/min
Calculate required manifold pressure required to meet the horsepower, or flow target
4.07 * 639.6 * (460+300)
/
.88 (ve) * 4500/2 * 42.958 (cubic inch of engine)
1978410.72
/
85056.84
= 23.2598662259261
psia (absolute)
add 2 psi for loss on intake system
25.2598662259261 psia
/
13.7 psi
1.843785855907014 pressure ratio
torque point
25.2598662259261 * .88 * (2000/2) * 42.958CI
/
639.6 * (460+300)
954899.7333333334
/
486096
= 1.964lb per min
40bhp calcs intercooled
40*12*.55/60 = 4.4lb/min
Calculate required manifold pressure required to meet the horsepower, or flow target
4.4 * 639.6 * (460+130)
/
.88 (ve) * 4500/2 * 42.958 (cubic inch of engine)
1661180.4
/
85056.84
= 19.53
psia (absolute)
add 2 psi for loss on intake system
21.53 psia
/
13.7 psi
1.5715 pressure ratio
torque point
21.53 * .88 * (2000/2) * 42.958CI
/
639.6 * (460+130)
813899.4512
/
377364
= 2.16lb per min
40bhp calcs nonintercooled
40*12*.55/60 = 4.4lb/min
Calculate required manifold pressure required to meet the horsepower, or flow target
4.4 * 639.6 * (460+300)
/
.88 (ve) * 4500/2 * 42.958 (cubic inch of engine)
2138822.4
/
85056.84
= 25.146
psia (absolute)
add 2 psi for loss on intake system
27.146 psia
/
13.7 psi
1.981459854014599 pressure ratio
torque point
27.146 * .88 * (2000/2) * 42.958CI
/
639.6 * (460+300)
1026201.32384
/
486096
= 2.11lb per min
45bhp calcs intercooled
45*12*.55/60 = 4.95lb/min
Calculate required manifold pressure required to meet the horsepower, or flow target
4.95 * 639.6 * (460+130)
/
.88 (ve) * 4500/2 * 42.958 (cubic inch of engine)
1867951.8
/
85056.84
= 21.9612179337958
psia (absolute)
add 2 psi for loss on intake system
23.9612179337958 psia
/
13.7 psi
1.748994009766117 pressure ratio
torque point
23.9612179337958 * .88 (Ve) * (2000/2) * 42.958 (Cubic Inch)
/
639.6 * (460+130)
905806.88
/
377364
= 2.400353186843472lb per min
45bhp calcs nonintercooled
45*12*.55/60 = 4.95lb/min
Calculate required manifold pressure required to meet the horsepower, or flow target
4.95 * 639.6 * (460+300)
/
.88 (ve) * 4500/2 * 42.958 (cubic inch of engine)
2406175.2
/
85056.84
= 28.2890264909912 psia (absolute)
add 2 psi for loss on intake system
30.2890264909912 psia
/
13.7 psi
2.210877846057752 pressure ratio
torque point
30.2890264909912 * .88 * (2000/2) * 42.958 Cubic Inch
/
639.6 * (460+300)
1145017.28
/
486096
= 2.355585801689413lb per min
50bhp calcs intercooled
50*12*.55/60 = 5.5lb/min
Calculate required manifold pressure required to meet the horsepower, or flow target
5.5 * 639.6 * (460+130)
/
.88 (ve) * 4500/2 * 42.958 (cubic inch of engine)
2075502
/
85056.84
= 24.40135325977311
psia (absolute)
add 2 psi for loss on intake system
26.40135325977311 psia
/
13.7 psi
1.927106077355702 pressure ratio
torque point
26.40135325977311 * .88 (Ve) * (2000/2) * 42.958 (Cubic Inch)
/
639.6 * (460+130)
998051.4133333333
/
377364
= 2.644797631287916lb per min
60bhp calcs intercooled
60*12*.55/60 = 6.6lb/min
Calculate required manifold pressure required to meet the horsepower, or flow target
6.6 * 639.6 * (460+130)
/
.88 (ve) * 4500/2 * 42.958 (cubic inch of engine)
2490602.4
/
85056.84
= 29.28162391172773
psia (absolute)
add 2 psi for loss on intake system
31.28162391172773 psia
/
13.7 psi
2.283 pressure ratio
torque point
31.28162391172773 * .88 * (2000/2) * 42.958CI
/
639.6 * (460+130)
1182540.48
/
377364
= 3.13lb per min
70bhp calcs intercooled
70*12*.55/60 = 7.7lb/min
Calculate required manifold pressure required to meet the horsepower, or flow target
7.7 * 639.6 * (460+130)
/
.88 (ve) * 4500/2 * 42.958 (cubic inch of engine)
2905702.8
/
85056.84
= 34.16189456368236
psia (absolute)
add 2 psi for loss on intake system
36.16189456368236 psia
/
13.7 psi
2.64 pressure ratio
Torque point
36.16189456368236 * .88 * (2000/2) * 42.958 Cubic Inch
/
639.6 * (460+130)
1367029.546666667
/
377364
= 3.623lb per min
75bhp calcs intercooled
75*12*.55/60 = 8.25lb/min
Calculate required manifold pressure required to meet the horsepower, or flow target
8.25 * 639.6 * (460+130)
/
.88 (ve) * 4500/2 * 42.958 (cubic inch of engine)
3113253
/
85056.84
= 36.60202988965967
psia (absolute)
add 2 psi for loss on intake system
38.60202988965967 psia
/
13.7 psi
2.82 pressure ratio
Torque point
38.60202988965967 * .88 * (2000/2) * 42.958 Cubic Inch
/
639.6 * (460+130)
1459274.08
/
377364
= 3.867lb per min
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Found some other interesting IHI's which look very capable in the later RHF3 and RHF6 series... now i'm just trying to locate them :D. I did see one for a citroen c4 1.4 hdi that was going cheap!
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I have to say I will be watching this closely as I want to do this to my BIS- if you get to the point where you are machining parts and having 2 made would lower the price contact me as I would happily go in on this!
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Awesome Stuey :). I'm at this moment in time considering IHI RHB31/32 or RHF3/4's... the RHB31/32 made some pretty awesome beasts out of 1 litre daihatsu charades and they didn't even run an intercooler. Seems the chinese are knocking them out at around £200... while i've been at it i've been looking for something for my dads old motorbike... I think I found something for that to the IHI RHE61! That will need to flow 13lb/min of air at a compression ratio of around 2 but looks perfect for it to be honest.
The charade used downdraught carbs so perhaps that might be an option! One pain in an inlet manifold is the water channel... those aircooled boys have it easy :D.
I spent this evening drawing the block side of the cylinder head in order to have a pattern for any gaskets or perhaps if I fancy a real challenge to start modelling the head in its entirity :D.
I need deeper pockets to speed this along now! Xmas wasn't quite that good to me. I think the Golf might have to go to fund such madness.
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I'm watching this too as I'm thinking of ditching the FIRE engine and turbo-ing the BIS engine instead.
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Well today I woke up to an email saying I had won an auction in japan, I haven't tried buying from there before but it seems the kei car scene has left a fair few ihi turbos lying around for dirt cheap... The model i've won is an RHF3 from a Daihatsu Terrios/Mira with model number VQ38. I've actually kind of fell in love with Daihatsu's whilst researching small engine turbo... 3 cylinder 12 valve engines :). The Mira Avenzato is a nice looking car to for sure although a tad rare. Charade GT turbo could be on the cards though (8:1 compression ratio). Then theres the Renault 5 GT Turbo (7.9:1 compression ratio).
So specs on the EF-RL engine this came from in a Mira:
EF-RL 3-cylinder DOHC
Turbo: IHI RHF3 VQ38
Compression Ratio: 8.5:1
68.0mm x 60.5mm (Bore X Stroke)
Bore stoke ratio: 1.12396694214876
659cc
64bhp (48kW) @ 7500rpm
74lb/ft (100Nm) @ 4000rpm
Electronic fuel injection with turbo intercooler
Rack and pinion power steering
4 Wheel Drive - 5 speed manual
Overall length 3295mm
Overall width 1385mm
Overall height 1450mm
Wheelbase 2300mm
Kerb Weight 730kg
I'm waiting a reply from Mike @ Ferriday Engineering regarding decompression plate options to perhaps try and aim for an estimated lowered compression ratio of 7.9:1 from both a 8.6:1 standard bis head and a 9:1 "big valve" cc700 head (which I have installed). This will allow more pushing more boost without raising the effective compression ratio to dangerous levels (12:1 is generally recommended).
Theres always the option of perhaps skimming some of the piston top. lol.
I'm also looking for someone who works with copper in order to produce a headgasket to my own template... i've been just generally disappointed with the 3-4 offerings i've seen of standard gaskets and the one copper one I have when put against my engine could be better. I've sent the drawing to the SS guys but not many people take on copper... i'm also reading alot of conflicting information regarding copper headgaskets against perhaps a composite kevlar headgasket being a better option especially without having the block surfaced also. Surface finish of the metals I guess also plays a part in how well they will seal!
I bought a TIG welder wonder machine in hopes to get fabricating a stainless exhaust for the BIS so I can continue to drive it around while I source bits and pieces but looks like i'll be trying to diagnose and fix that before I can begin to fabricate anything at all. I had prices back for laser cut exhaust flanges in 10mm stainless and they are a little steep so i'm considering 7mm stainless flanges or mild steel flanges to perhaps keep costs down. 10mm would be better though.
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My RHF3 Turbo Calcs based on maintaining no more than a 12:1 effective compression ratio (the formula for this i'm unsure is correct, theres a couple floating around the net but i'd rather ease on the side of caution and this formula was the one that seems to hit the 12:1 earliest during calcs.
RHF3 Turbo stock 8.6:1 compression safe limit.
Wa = (BHP * AFR * (BSFC/Te))
Wa = (58.65 * 12 * (.55/60)
Wa = 6.45153 lb/min
Torque = BHP x 5252 ÷ RPM
Torque = 58.65 x 5252 ÷ 4500
Torque = 68.4510666667 lb/ft
Manifold Pressure (Required) = (6.94272 * 639.6 * (460 + 130) / (0.88 * (4500/2) * 42.961)
MAPREQ = 28.6209 psi (absolute)
Gauge pressure = MAPREQ - 14.7psi
Gauge Pressure = 13.9209 psi/0.959812268 bar
Pressure Ratio = (MAPREQ + Pressure loss between compressor and manifold (2 psi estimate) / (Ambient air pressure - pressure loss due to airfilter/piping (1 psi estimate))
Pressure Ratio = (28.6209+2)/(14.7-1)
Pressure Ratio = 2.23510218978
Torque airflow = ((PSIA + Pressure Loss through intercooler) * Ve * (rpm/2) * cubic inch) / (Gas constant * (460 + Tempt 130 for intercooled 300 for non))
Torque airflow = ((28.6209 + 2) * 0.88 * (2000/2) * 42.961) / (639.6 * (460 + 130))
Torque airflow = 3.0677116702 lb/min
Torque = 27.8883 x 5252 ÷ 2000
Torque = 73.2346758 lb ft
Effective compression ratio = square root of ((psig boost + 14.7)/14.7) * Compression ratio
Effective compression ratio = (square root((13.9209 + 14.7) ÷ 14.7)) * 8.6
Effective compression ratio = 12.00
Effective compression ratio = square root of ((psig boost + 14.7)/14.7) * Compression ratio
Effective compression ratio = (square root((16.1 + 14.7) ÷ 14.7)) * 7.5
Effective compression ratio = 10.8562029668
Effective compression ratio = square root of ((psig boost + 14.7)/14.7) * Compression ratio
Effective compression ratio = (square root((16.1 + 14.7) ÷ 14.7)) * 9
Effective compression ratio = 13.0274435602
RHF3 Turbo lower 7.9:1 compression ratio safe limit.
Wa = (BHP * AFR * (BSFC/Te))
Wa = (69.4682 * 12 * (.55/60)
Wa = 7.6415 lb/min
Torque = BHP x 5252 ÷ RPM
Torque = 69.4682 x 5252 ÷ 4500
Torque = 81.0771080889 lb/ft
Manifold Pressure (Required) = (7.6415 * 639.6 * (460 + 130) / (0.88 * (4500/2) * 42.961)
MAPREQ = 33.9 psi (absolute)
Gauge pressure = MAPREQ - 14.7psi
Gauge Pressure = 19.2 psi/1.3237934 bar
Pressure Ratio = (MAPREQ + Pressure loss between compressor and manifold (2 psi estimate) / (Ambient air pressure - pressure loss due to airfilter/piping (1 psi estimate))
Pressure Ratio = (33.9+2)/(14.7-1)
Pressure Ratio = 2.6204379562
Torque airflow = ((PSIA + Pressure Loss through intercooler) * Ve * (rpm/2) * cubic inch) / (Gas constant * (460 + Tempt 130 for intercooled 300 for non))
Torque airflow = ((33.9 + 2) * 0.88 * (2000/2) * 42.961) / (639.6 * (460 + 130))
Torque airflow = 3.59659085657 lb/min
Torque = 27.8883 x 5252 ÷ 2000
Torque = 73.2346758 lb ft
Effective compression ratio = square root of ((psig boost + 14.7)/14.7) * Compression ratio
Effective compression ratio = (square root((19.2 + 14.7) ÷ 14.7)) * 7.9
Effective compression ratio = 12.00
RHF3 Turbo CC700 head 9:1 compression ratio safe limit.
Wa = (BHP * AFR * (BSFC/Te))
Wa = (53.5526 * 12 * (.55/60)
Wa = 5.89079 lb/min
Torque = BHP x 5252 ÷ RPM
Torque = 53.5526 x 5252 ÷ 4500
Torque = 62.5018344889 lb/ft
Manifold Pressure (Required) = (5.89079 * 639.6 * (460 + 130) / (0.88 * (4500/2) * 42.961)
MAPREQ = 26.1333 psi (absolute)
Gauge pressure = MAPREQ - 14.7psi
Gauge Pressure = 11.4333 psi/0.788298286 bar
Pressure Ratio = (MAPREQ + Pressure loss between compressor and manifold (2 psi estimate) / (Ambient air pressure - pressure loss due to airfilter/piping (1 psi estimate))
Pressure Ratio = (26.1333+2)/(14.7-1)
Pressure Ratio = 2.05352554745
Torque airflow = ((PSIA + Pressure Loss through intercooler) * Ve * (rpm/2) * cubic inch) / (Gas constant * (460 + Tempt 130 for intercooled 300 for non))
Torque airflow = ((26.1333 + 2) * 0.88 * (2000/2) * 42.961) / (639.6 * (460 + 130))
Torque airflow = 2.8184949734 lb/min
Effective compression ratio = square root of ((psig boost + 14.7)/14.7) * Compression ratio
Effective compression ratio = (square root((11.4333 + 14.7) ÷ 14.7)) * 9
Effective compression ratio = 12.00
We see below that the max permissable turbo speed will be being hit at a pressure ratio of around 2.6 so running 19.2 bar at a CR of 7.9:1. Any more than this and we will be looking for bigger turbos and probably introducing more lag into the system but I think 1.3 bar is more than enough power than i'd be comfortable seeing the engine deal with. Poor crank... :D. Perhaps more power is available further up the RPM band if willing to push it also.
As the IHI turbo map is in m3/min... I found an awesome excel sheet for turbo sizing which seems fairly accurate based on my hand calcs. This helped convert my lb/min calcs to m3/min for accurate plotting. Available here :http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/mattmouth182_rag/mx6/page.html
One thing I noticed is that this seems to give different pressure ratios... lower than my calcs based on garretts turbo expert documentation... I wonder which is closer to being correct... if the spreadsheet's pressure ratio calc is closer than mine then there is probably more puff in the turbo's than i'm planning for.
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It seems the GT0632SZ is not as capable as the RHF3 as the basic IHI diagrams would have you believe.... I can't imagine this being the case though. If true then aiming for a compression ratio of around 8.29:1 would be good at 16.1 PSI and running any higher would push the turbo to the choke line where it starts producing heat. Pressure ratio of 2.4:1. Turbo would possibly not start spinning up before 2500rpm as its running at the very edge of the surge line... this may cause the turbine to stall and inhibit spinning due to lack of air supply.
GT0632SZ max efficiency point
Wa = (BHP * AFR * (BSFC/Te))
Wa = (63.1156 * 12 * (.55/60)
Wa = 6.94272b/min
Manifold Pressure (Required) = (6.94272 * 639.6 * (460 + 130) / (0.88 * (4500/2) * 42.961)
MAPREQ = 30.8 psi (absolute)
Gauge pressure = MAPREQ - 14.7psi
Gauge Pressure = 16.1 psi/1.11005592 bar
Pressure Ratio = (MAPREQ + Pressure loss between compressor and manifold (2 psi estimate) / (Ambient air pressure - pressure loss due to airfilter/piping (1 psi estimate))
Pressure Ratio = (30.8+2)/(14.7-1)
Pressure Ratio = 2.4
Torque airflow = ((PSIA + Pressure Loss through intercooler) * Ve * (rpm/2) * cubic inch) / (Gas constant * (460 + Tempt 130 for intercooled 300 for non))
Torque airflow = ((30.8 + 2) * 0.88 * (2000/2) * 42.961) / (639.6 * (460 + 130))
Torque airflow = 3.28602172968 lb/min
Effective compression ratio = square root of ((psig boost + 14.7)/14.7) * Compression ratio
Effective compression ratio = (square root((16.1 + 14.7) ÷ 14.7)) * 8.6
Effective compression ratio = 12.4484460686
Effective compression ratio = square root of ((psig boost + 14.7)/14.7) * Compression ratio
Effective compression ratio = (square root((16.1 + 14.7) ÷ 14.7)) * 8.29
Effective compression ratio = 12
I wonder how sizing up a twin turbo solution would go haha.
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i know you joking but there would never be enough flow for a twin turbo. i'm running a aircooled 650 with a garret t2, i'm still trying to sort out my fueling but with the standard carb it did boost a little.
i'm crrently trying to sort out a injection system.
good luck with your project, one bit of advise do reaserch on mounting the turbo you will find that important if your turbo is of a disent size.
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Hi guys :).
I've been collecting as much info in RHF/RHB turbos as possible and I ended up winning an auction for a Daihatsu IHI RHF VQ38 (turbine housing AR of 7) turbo... I don't think this is a ball bearing turbo which would of been the ideal and lots of the awesome looking daihatsu 12v 3 cylinder 660cc motors are running. Kei cars limited in power to about 63-64bhp by regulations capable of alot more! Madness that I quite enjoy the thought of playing with. There is also the VG7 trim from a honda life would of been a good option to I feel... they are both ball bearing options. As is perhaps the VQ50 from a daihatsu copen... cost about £500 to get one imported I imagine :(. We will see how much I get stung on postage fees on this one first! At the moment its cost me:
(Unit Price x Quantity of Items) + Buyee Service Fee + Payment Fee)
(3,000 yen ×1 item(s)) + 500 yen + 200 yen
I expect the postage is going to sky rocket 30-40k yen perhaps which will really p me off :(. lol.
The VQ38 seems to be used on the EF-RL engine in a "Daihatsu L602 Move" and also a Terios 4*4 diesel... The scheme of things tends to suggest the diesels cars ran a higher turbine housing AR. Garrett states that this moves the power further up into higher RPM band and tends to suit larger displacements... most Diesel turbo variants seem to have a higher AR. I guess they do need more air than a petrol car to reach Stoich though.
I ended up looking at Fiat 1.4 t-jet turbos, in particular the 120bhp variant I feel should be a good match for the desired pressure of 19.2psi (VL37/possibly VL39 - higher flow for euro 5 emissions perhaps, although still not totally sure on the variances). Another option is an MGT1238SZ which i've not managed to locate, I believe this could be an awesome variety. The other 1.4 spec turbos won't spool up and provide the required boost in the kind of RPM range our little cars operate within however those T-jets can be turned into fire spitting monsters with a good turbo setup! An interesting read here and one of the only places I found compressor maps for any of the RHF3 turbos: www.ingas-eu.org/docs/741.doc. Using the spreadsheet referenced in an earlier thread you can see what kind of air flow these turbo's are suited for when plugging in the specs on the 1368cc cylinder t-jet.
I ended up buying one from ebay.it for £180 used but looking quite clean... I might also have another on the cards but I need to stop spending this cash I need to find first :D.
A delay in the whole scheme of things is the fact that I bought a 3-1 welder to make up an exhaust firstly, however I need to become familiar with the circuits and start diagnosing whats happening there... the size of the caps in there are a little scary! Hopefully I can get that up and running so I can start fabricating something :).
As for twin turbo... I think there are turbos small enough if you can find them. Aisin AMT30, Mitsubishi TD015, Borg Warner KP31... they look like they'd all make awesome twin turbos... used on small 1 litre diesels :D.
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Well one of the turbo's arrived today from ebay.it, however i'm not too happy... I opened the box to find the turbo had been split in two, there is a locating roll pin missing from in between the housings, the v-band clamp is also missing. Along with about 4 exhaust downpipe mounting studs :(.
The bracket for the wastegate actuator has also been broke off the exhaust housing side and left on the actuator rod (which should have been removed by a circlip)... otherwise the collector is a little big than i'd planned for originally but should fit a couple of 1.25" pipes in somehow :).
I have a feeling I might end up losing my boot perhaps, but we will see. Obstacles to be overcome... plenty of them!
Anyway here's some pics of the turbo:
(http://i1344.photobucket.com/albums/p647/poxxxy/IHI%20RHF3%20VL37%20Turbo%2014%20Tjet%20MA%20120bhp/20150205_174246_zpsijkwba2d.jpg) (http://s1344.photobucket.com/user/poxxxy/media/IHI%20RHF3%20VL37%20Turbo%2014%20Tjet%20MA%20120bhp/20150205_174246_zpsijkwba2d.jpg.html)
(http://i1344.photobucket.com/albums/p647/poxxxy/IHI%20RHF3%20VL37%20Turbo%2014%20Tjet%20MA%20120bhp/20150205_174114_zpseqsqn6qg.jpg) (http://s1344.photobucket.com/user/poxxxy/media/IHI%20RHF3%20VL37%20Turbo%2014%20Tjet%20MA%20120bhp/20150205_174114_zpseqsqn6qg.jpg.html)
(http://i1344.photobucket.com/albums/p647/poxxxy/IHI%20RHF3%20VL37%20Turbo%2014%20Tjet%20MA%20120bhp/20150205_173246_zps1xvceabp.jpg) (http://s1344.photobucket.com/user/poxxxy/media/IHI%20RHF3%20VL37%20Turbo%2014%20Tjet%20MA%20120bhp/20150205_173246_zps1xvceabp.jpg.html)
(http://i1344.photobucket.com/albums/p647/poxxxy/IHI%20RHF3%20VL37%20Turbo%2014%20Tjet%20MA%20120bhp/missing-stud_zpslizv7vol.jpg) (http://s1344.photobucket.com/user/poxxxy/media/IHI%20RHF3%20VL37%20Turbo%2014%20Tjet%20MA%20120bhp/missing-stud_zpslizv7vol.jpg.html)
(http://i1344.photobucket.com/albums/p647/poxxxy/IHI%20RHF3%20VL37%20Turbo%2014%20Tjet%20MA%20120bhp/broken-pin_zpsehmttzq0.jpg) (http://s1344.photobucket.com/user/poxxxy/media/IHI%20RHF3%20VL37%20Turbo%2014%20Tjet%20MA%20120bhp/broken-pin_zpsehmttzq0.jpg.html)
(http://i1344.photobucket.com/albums/p647/poxxxy/IHI%20RHF3%20VL37%20Turbo%2014%20Tjet%20MA%20120bhp/Position-it-should-be-in_zpsi8qpluch.jpg) (http://s1344.photobucket.com/user/poxxxy/media/IHI%20RHF3%20VL37%20Turbo%2014%20Tjet%20MA%20120bhp/Position-it-should-be-in_zpsi8qpluch.jpg.html)
(http://i1344.photobucket.com/albums/p647/poxxxy/IHI%20RHF3%20VL37%20Turbo%2014%20Tjet%20MA%20120bhp/Broken-exhaust-housing-wastegate-control_zpsmuwsdlcd.jpg) (http://s1344.photobucket.com/user/poxxxy/media/IHI%20RHF3%20VL37%20Turbo%2014%20Tjet%20MA%20120bhp/Broken-exhaust-housing-wastegate-control_zpsmuwsdlcd.jpg.html)
(http://i1344.photobucket.com/albums/p647/poxxxy/IHI%20RHF3%20VL37%20Turbo%2014%20Tjet%20MA%20120bhp/broken-actuator-pin-1_zpsv39fydcp.jpg) (http://s1344.photobucket.com/user/poxxxy/media/IHI%20RHF3%20VL37%20Turbo%2014%20Tjet%20MA%20120bhp/broken-actuator-pin-1_zpsv39fydcp.jpg.html)
(http://i1344.photobucket.com/albums/p647/poxxxy/IHI%20RHF3%20VL37%20Turbo%2014%20Tjet%20MA%20120bhp/missing-v-clamp_zpscemorseg.jpg) (http://s1344.photobucket.com/user/poxxxy/media/IHI%20RHF3%20VL37%20Turbo%2014%20Tjet%20MA%20120bhp/missing-v-clamp_zpscemorseg.jpg.html)
I was expecting it to come whole so not sure where I stand as I don't fancy the cost of sending it back to Italy!
The one from Japan actually arrived in the UK the day after they posted it in Tokyo, however Parcelforce still have it in customs... typical!
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Oh dear :( can you get in touch with the seller and express your concerns? Perhaps get a refund?
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I've explained my issues with it, they offered a refund if I sent it back to Italy but £80 through royal mail kind of puts me off! Asked for a partial refund to help cover the cost of a v-band clamp + studs. Will have to weld up the actuator bracket for repair :).
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Finally managed to acquire enough tools to get going with the project :). Now I just have to figure out where the hell to route the pipes and place the turbo!
I kind of need to figure out how i'm going to introduce some kind of ignition advance retard with the mechanical dizzy now... or decide on going EFI :(. That might help me a little!
I spent yesterday cutting some oblique pieces out of some 304 stainless and deburring them... certainly took a while but will be able to make some bends of my own where mandrels or elbows might not be possible. Do I sacrifice boost space and have the turbo sitting above... or try and fit it somewhere down below a little close to the road! They certainly made it awkward with the BIS and wanting more useable space with a boot! I can't help feel but the air cooled would be much easier when it comes to space :).
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Fantastic, nice to see you're soldiering on with this, personally I'd fit the turbo above the engine and make a new engine lit to fit after.
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the a/c engine is alot easier to find space for the turbo. i would probably put it above the engine because you don't realy want water to splash on a hot turbo and cuase posible cracking or worse, but i would try to get sme good cooling for the boot space or it might get a bit hot (:>
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Haven't got round to fabricating anything yet, still stuck on the fueling/ignition decisions!
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i have managed to use efi but i used the injection off my manta gte which is a very basic efi system. carbs are simple but you would probably have to us a su hif type carb or you would have to modify the carb and fuel system to be able to work with boost.