Club126UK
Fiat 126 Chat => Fiat 126 Mechanical Problem Solving => Topic started by: punkydog on March 10, 2006, 05:15:45 PM
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I just want to check the position of the delivery and return fuel lines on my Bis. The manual shows the pipe nearest the rear as the return line but on mine and on my parts car it has the filter on it and appears to be the delivery pipe, the other is marked “R†and I assume that this means “returnâ€Â. I also assume that it wouldn’t work if connected incorrectly. Both pumps are different to the one in the manual.
The reason I ask is that since an engine rebuild the pump seems to struggle unless the tank is over a third full, and fails to pump the second the low fuel light starts flashing - yes, I have checked that my delivery pipe is connected to the pickup pipe on the tank and not the return.
The returned fuel is only a trickle even with a full tank. I have replaced the heat spacer as the old one was cracked. The manual has something about thinner gaskets to increase fuel pressure but the gasket kit only contains enough for the spacer and the pump.
Is just a failing pump?
I was supplied with new pump which looks like the older style but the mounting holes are closer together, is this a 650 or a 500 one? The supplier insists that it is correct and refuses to change it but it is obviously isn't correct – so I will not be buying off them again
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Hi Brian,
I have fitted three new pumps to my Bis, all have been different ! The 'lift '
on the pump is critical and can be varied by the thickness of the gasket. I still have the other two pumps and basically they are both full of brown sludge. hence why it is probably better to put a filter on the inlet and outlet.
My mechanic told me that the pushrod that lifts the pump wears after a while. He welded a blob on the end of my pushrod and then ground it down to size. I normally keep a spare pump in the car + condenser and points just in case.
I have had my Bis since new and have only just gone over 18,000 miles so there would appear to be a inherent problem ( other than head gasket).
Off to good old blighty early tomorrow so will look forward to finding out if you solve the problem when I return.
Best of luck.
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yes the nearest pipe is the feed . and the pipe behind is the return. did you replace the rod at the same time ? as for the supplier he cannot refuse a return unless you have used , broke or ran over the 15 or 30 day returns deadline . if you have not send it back , you can its the law.
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yes mic is right (bis13) they seem cheeky to insist your incorrect.
can i ask which company you have used Brian?
the new pumps are big bulky gray ones with a rubber gasket/spacer.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/FIAT-127-1050-1300-FUEL-PUMP-NEW_W0QQitemZ4620422835QQcategoryZ10382QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting
this is a pump for a 127 but in looks is very similar to the new BIS pumps. (This is what my one looks like, which i bought from ricambio recently)
ive had the same conversation before with someone on the preloved forums about the fuel lines locations, we all came to the conclusion the BIS manual has mixed the lines up.
Peter, i was having a conversation the otehr day with my brother, i said to him i want to put the filter before the pump to stop the dirt getting into it, he said dont worry aout the pump put it between carb and pump. After what you said about "brown sludge" i know where i will put it. Can you put two in? one before pump and one before carb?
regards
Chris
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Hi Chris,
Just returned from three weeks in UK, catching up on the 126 site !
Cannot see any problem with putting two filters on. Once the system is pressurised it should not have any adverse effect.
Never saw one 126 whilst in the UK. I am sure I e-mailed someone in Silverstone who had a 126 and as I was staying in my house there it would have been ideal to meet up. Can you pass on that members details please ?
My other half was driving to the airport in Malta to pick me up and some prat drove into the back of the Puttputt. There is some superficial damage to the riser panel and the nearside mounting bracket is in kit form. Judging by the problem she had in extricating the guys telephone number it is probably going to be difficult in chasing him for the cost of the repair. Fortuitously I bought a big bottle of touch up from Halfords whilst there but I did not expect to have to use it so soon !!
All the best,
Peter
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hi peter sorry to hear about the accident, so not too much damage?
yes i will be putting two filters on, i had ago and putting one between the carb and pump but the bloody filter filled up too quickly with fuel and leaked, i tired both ways and was same. Also the hose clips i got from halfords not only were they expensive they were too big
Peter i cant think for the life of me who the member is near silverston, i know there is one, i forget where everyone is, i will trawl through the membership forms to see if i can find that person.
regards
Chris
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darkhorse is silverstone way i do believe.
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yes you are right!!!! but i think he has moved now.
look out for Darkhorse on here Peter his name is John Bitmead.
regards
Chris
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this is th eone i just purchased from my local autofactors, the nearest pipe is the input.
(http://www.bruces-stuff.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/pump.jpg)
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Hi Guys,
I like many have had my fair share of problems with the fuel pump. I bumped into an old customer of mine at our Motor Show yesterday while I was deciding on a new car. He is the Technical Director of the biggest breakdown company in Malta (equivalent to the AA ). We were discussing my on going 126 pump fiasco. Now they have computer records of typical mechanical failures on all makes going back to the early 80's. The cause according to their statistics is that you get a moisture build up in the crankcase. The moisture finds it's way up to the fuel pump and rusts the spring apart from other internal parts which causes the failure. They also believe that moisture can get into the fuel system as well. He said to me the best solution for the 126 is to remove the fuel pump completely, blank off the mounting and install a 12 volt electric fuel pump.
It seems plausible to me, but I always thought the system was pressurised.
One thing for sure the Maltese are VERY clever mechanics they can and do amazing things to cars, fabricating whatever parts they cannot procure slotting diesel engines into nearly anything you can think of ( not 126's yet though ).
I always thought the system had to be pressurised, what say all you boffins out there ?
Regards,
The Laird
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I thought about an electric pump aswell. My old merc had an electric pump and that was definatly a pressurised fuel system, because it used pressure to inject the fuel, the was a pressure resevour for starting aswell. Certainly be a lot less trouble than trying to find a new pump every couple of years.
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peter the rusting would explain the brown sludge u found in you fuel pump.
electric fuel pump be easy to fit?
regards
Chris
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Austin has an electric pump fitted to his aircooled I think.If ther is rust in there the fuel tank need's changing,dosnt matter how many filter' are in line it'll find it's way through and the wee car won't run right. :sad:
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Yep I have an electric fuel pump fitted (by a previous owner). It comes on with the ignition and seems to work well. I'll take a photo or two and post them here later. Doesn't look like to difficult a job to fit. (Famous last words :roll: )
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Bob a switch on an electric fuel pump circuit and its quite a good anti-theft device - the car won't get far on what's in the carb bowl.
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Here's the electric fuel pump fitted to my car. The original pump is still in place. At some stage I'll remove it and cover the hole with a plate I think.
(http://www.itcad.com/grafix/fuelpump_close.jpg)
(http://www.itcad.com/grafix/fuelpump.jpg)
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the only problem is finding the right electric pump as they all pump different amounts (higher or lower pressure). i had this agro on a previous bis and a morris 1000 pump was suggested. the sludge you talk about is behind the pump where the push bar is and not in the actual fuel lines/ pump . i bought a job lot of fuel pumps from a motor factors and so never worry on this front , buy a few pumps and carry one with you at all times you never know when it will get you .
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how would one put one in a bis, as the pump for that has a return pipe, the required pressure at 4000 rpm is stated in the manual, would it be ok to use a pump that provided a constant pressure?
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hi there i am new here and i have a problem with my 126 bis fuel pump it has disintegrated (common fault ?)
been to my local fiat main dealer m+k old colwyn north wales they are not available now and are deleted
1 - any one know where to get one from ?
2 - and how much ?
on the subject of electric fuel pumps a blitz site lists a metro or mg midget one as working and giving the correct pressure it also does not need the return as it pumps till the float is full then shuts off
http://pages.zoom.co.uk/blitzracing/Racing%20a%20blitz.htm
'quote
Fuel pump
The standard system uses a mechanical pump that constantly circulates fuel through the carburetor and back to the tank. This can flood the carburetor as there is no adjustment on the output pressure. I would recommend fitting an electric unit with constant low-pressure output (say 3 psi) such as a Metro or MG Midget unit. These units stop pumping when the float chamber is full so no re-circulation pipe is needed and can cope with full power fuel demand. If fuel leakage from the carb' is a problem, it may be necessary to fit a variable fuel pressure regulator, and reduce the pressure on the float valve. Life is tough for the float valve on a Blitz as the carb' gets shaken so much, so its important to ensure the float and needle are in good condition. 'quote
1 - anyone know if this is correct
2 - does it have the correct pressure needed to run a 704 cc w/cooled bis
3 - ran mine into town for a electric check up drove it home parked it up big backfire then dead fuel pump totally random!!
how it worked all the way home then totally destroyed the next day is beyond me
anyhow till i get it sorted i will have to use my bike
also i am interested in a late aircooled bis from poland did they do just left hand drive models or are there some r hand ones about??
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Further to my last post I have been investigating 12 volt pumps. I have come across a suitable pump which is widely used in racing cars all over the world. They do a unit that runs at .2 bar which is equivalent to just under 3 psi which is the pressure for the Bis. It has a capacity of 45 litres an hour which is more than adequate.
It is quite a small unit and could easily be adapted to fit over the existing pump once blanked off. However they suggest that it is fitted as near to the fuel tank as possible. Fue filters would also be advisable.
I have been quoted Lm 18 50 which is about £27 50 but I am sure there are probably cheaper equivalents. The make is Facet and the solid state model is the one I am describing.
Hope this may be of some use.
THE LAIRD
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On the subject of electric pumps used by other makes and models like the Morris 1000, Mini etc. They are all very much different some are designed for a short push and a long pull effect such has the Minor 1000 on the other hand the Mini was designed the opposite way long push and a short pull (because the tank is in the rear)
This may be of help in someone adapting one of these pumps.
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moggy minor ones are great,good SU quality,i have used them on all sorts of cars.......never had a problem,my bis was running with one for a while,powered from the rear sidelight!............................. :cool:
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ok demon tweeks in wrexham have a facet red top solid state fuel pump for about £30 3 psi fitting kit is a bit extra includes filters mounts and pipe i think was thinking of fitting one as a backup with a diverter switch on it like someone said from a seperate switch under the dash
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thats sounds like a good idea, i think my Fuel pump has gone, its only few months old :sad:
to block off the old fuel pump do you just remove the rod? and how hard is it to leave the old in place as well as the electric pump?
will lump a new posh rod in as well and a new pump, ive been trying to start it time and time again all day, could this have worn the pump out? also fuel lines have severed with age so no fuel is passing through pump which makes it wear quicker?
Wallopdonkey did you say you couldnt locate an orginal pump?
www.ricambio.co.uk they do them for about £20 i gte most of my stuff from them.
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when i spoke to ricambio they said 45 for the pump and rod i think i will leave the pump where it is as it workin sound but gonna mount the eleccy one to the left inner wing as the fuel pipes are on that side anyway i will just swap the fuel pipes from the mechanical pump to the eleccy one if i need to shud be easier than changing a fuel pump at the side of the road and moving the dizzy to get at that bolt
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on the subject of ''that bolt'' do what i did,take it out,grind the head so it clears the dizzy,cut a slot in it then you can use a screw driver to remove etc...............also,there are two nice 6mm threaded studs on that left inner wing to fit a base plate to take your lecky pump and earth,thats where mine is on the aircooled....i fitted new mech pump from gerstl (£15.00ish) to the bis.....im trying to keep that standard (LOL)
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yeah cheers if i get the positive from the side light though wont the light have to be on all the time someone said about it earlier in either this post or another one not sure where it was no am gonna run it from the dash anyhow
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he he that was me,i wired it in as a get me home thing,on the aircooled i've taken power from the coil................turn the key and on it comes