Club126UK
Fiat 126 Chat => Fiat 126 Mechanical Problem Solving => Topic started by: 126redbomb on November 22, 2011, 06:35:13 PM
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I would like to ask if anyone has bought "Fiat 126 distributor Electronic Ignition Ultra-Spark"
off ebay because I am sooo tempted! But I don't want to pay out that sort of money and find out it doesn't work! So I thought there must be some guinea pigs out there? :P
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Yes, and this has been covered.... let me see..... O!....here!
http://club126uk.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=6076.0
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My 126 came with the Ultra-Spark already fitted and it seems to run very well on a standard engine. I have been running the 123 set upon my slightly moadified 500L for about 3 years with no problems but I just ordered an Accu-Spark set up from eBay to give it a try on the 126, I think that it was under £38 and I should be able to report back on it soon. Apart from doing away with the dreaded condensor & points they put a lighter load on your distributor . So in the long term a possible investment and hey I just bought a set of 4 spark plugs for my Seat Arosa today , £32 in Halfords. I thought it must be a mistake but found out that they are even more expensive on eBay :o
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Sounds good to me! Question: does it matter that mine is a zelmot for the bis (and I havn't got a clue whats on the polish aircooled), so I just drop it in and thats it, oh and use a timing light! I will wait for your report before I buy the cheaper model. Thanks all once again.
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Got home from 8ball, after talking to Mr Rusty, I dropped a massive hint to santa (Left it on the computer and pointed to picture)' That's what I would like !!!!! That little bit of wire with a plastic bit on the end, for £37.00
Now it looks like money went out of Paypal :$
At least if I can't make it work I can blame Santa and Rusty ;D
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Hi,
Yes there have been a few fitted and no one has complained. This component just removes the dreded points and condensor. I run one now in the 126 and all I can say is it works well and my tuned engine runs 100 bhp 8)
Just one last thing if you run a twin spark system you may need to check the timing light has a setting to allow you to time the time-ing light up.
Smallcox
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Thanks folks,
Looks like Santa bumped up the price ::)! :D! Me being tight, I think I might wait for it to drop back down in price (7 quid is 7 quid) ;).
Whats a twin spark ??? I know nothing about motors so you must be talking in a foreign language :$.
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Hi! I´m the newest AccuSpark owner ;D I managed to catch the discount,also the good thing was the bonus free shipping even to BG. :) It looks great performed. On day I´ll share more impressions :)
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Hi mate, I will get one but after crimbo. I know I shouldn't put all my hopes on this, but it would great if it works.
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I bought the AccuSpark also at the discount price :D however it still beats me why it is still more expensive than most of the 4 cylinder cars. Anyway I wanted to replace the existing electronic ignition on the car as I was convinced than some twit had cut the wires too short leading to the coil being mounted directly above the exhaust.
AAAArgh ::) first thing I found was that the new unit had the same length wires and in the instructions it says that wires may need to be lengthened !
Second thing I found was that the existing unit was also exactly the same :$
Glad I did the job though as the existing one had not been very well fitted and would have lead to problems further down the line.
The insulating block where the wires pass through had just had a chunk cut out so the wires were not restrained at all so a little tug on the ignition module wires pulled the wires indide the distributor into contact with the rotor so they would have worn through. I found a spare block and drilled out the hole to 8mms which gave a great fit when the wires & grommet were pulled through.
Before you rush into this job though make a note of the distributor body and the rotor arm positions before you remove the distributor.
to be continued .............
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So I have been running the new ignition for about 2 weeks and done about 300 miles. 1st picture shows 3 of the insulator blocks along with the grommet which comes with the unit. There is the bodged one , a standard one & one drilled out to 8mms.
2nd picture looking down into distributor , cap , rotor arm , points & backing plate removed and the unit ready to fit.
3rd picture , unit in place and I positioned the wires so they could not touch the rotor then se3cured them in place with a spot of superglue to the wires & grommet.
Then rotor arm on and cap and it's ready to go :D
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It looks soooo easy! ;D Thanks for the pics Rustys Uncle. Oh Just a thought, the two wires! Where do they go? Not soooo easy then :$ Mine is a zelmot. Its a bit late to have a look now but im sure I will figure it out.
Another question: on the Bis there is a filter on top of the carb (well I think that's what it is) am I right in thinking that if this is clogged up it will effect the running ( Yes I havn't a clue). And am I right in thinking can it be cleaned out with petrol. Oh another thing why would it be clogged up in the first place (another silly question).
Thanks.
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The distributor I just fitted is a Zelmot. The main thing is that you need to have the top location for the rotor arm as I had another distributor that did not have this. Another reason why I wanted to to do a swop was that I could see that the rotor arm had been hitting the electrodes inside the distributor cap for some reason. Turned out that the new distributor cap was a tight fit & had not been pushed home on the distriubutor body plus the holding spring clips were a little slack so nipping up the clips with pliers and making sure the cap was located properly eliminated this problem.
As for wiring it is covered in the instuctions but basicaly the red wire goes to the power feed side of the coil ( the wire from the ignition that comes out of the harness) & the black wire goes to the negative side of the coil (where the wire from coil to distributor originaly went).
A guy across the road from me fitted one of these to his Porsce and only came to me when he could not make it work. He fitted it without reading the instructions , got the polarity wrong and blew the module straight away :$
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My brain still can't believe this will work. But Boxing day I will find out. Will it work with the distributor I have (rotorless). or will I need to raid the spare engine? If I do, I assume I need to get a coil too :-((
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After looking at the Rusty's photos it won't work on the Bis because the Bis has two plates, the top plate moves as its connected to the vacuum advance and the bottom plate is fixed, unless they do a specific ignition module for the Bis you would spend allot of time trying to make it work properly.
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Oye ! don't throw the baby out with the bathwater just yet :$ As opposed to the more expensive 123 ignition system which does everything electonically these ultra/accu spark things (same item but different price) just replace the points & condensor, like a trigger and leave any advance up to the original set up, centrifugal in the case of the air cooled motors. Long time since I had a Bis so can't remember the set up but as the electronic ignition module just screws to the top plate I can see no reason why it would not work on the Bis but would be a little more of a custom job :D
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You know what, I'm glad I asked because thats whats been rattling my brain ??? I have asked the dealer if it fits the Bis and he said YES (but if he is getting £55 out of me he will say anything won't he). I just need to know it anyone has fitted it to the Bis? I'm repeating myself aren't I! :headscratch: Yes the madness is setting in :-
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Oh sorry rusty I didn't see your last post :$
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I've just took a pic of the Bis distributor. Of course no chance to fit. But if you love challenges, you can implant it. Only the axe needs to be machined after the aircooled one, cos it's big for the wheel (+2&3mm). There is a lot of room to drill and thread in the contact plate :)
If you ask the company only for the parts you need, could be a bit cheaper. :)
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Thanks Deyan for the photos, I have just Emailed Accuspark to confirm it won't fit and if there is an alternative.
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I had the same problem as the bis,
Although mine is air cooled the distributor is a delco distributor from the Triumph car but house the original 126 wieghts and shaft. They would not sell me the module for one and trigger ring for the other.
I purchased a 126 kit and it was only the matter off drilling hole in the module plate where the pionts and the condensor are bolt to- hey 1 hour tops to do this. ;)
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God I'm more confused.com than I was before, but if you get a chance smallcox can you take a photo of your dissy that would be great(yes I am cheeky).
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Got this reply from AccuSpark on Ebay:
Hello
Sorry I don't have any cross reference information for cars with a vacuum advance , sorry can't confirm fitment
Regards Tony
So as Steve said you would have to make it fit yourself Plus I'm not sure whether the trigger will fit on the shaft ???
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No, the shaft is bigger, as I mentioned in my previous post (I know I can't explain myself good in english :$ ) . But in the machine shop they can copy the shape of the AC one on the Bis's shaft in 3 min. Just needs to bring the good old classic one. ;)
As Rusty said, the cables need about 10cm more. :- Is it too expensive to put 2x15cm more, AccuFriends!? >:( And WTH means "cars with a vacuum...". Maybe 99% of the sets they got are for such rides. ??? I wanted to ask them something about coils, but better not. 8)
The FIAT Uno has the same trigger like Bis. They have also an electronic pick-up one http://www.ricambio.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=1036 but it needs ignition module like Cinquecento 700 (if this sender is OK), also trigger-wheel for 2cyl. I'm not familiar with the modern cyber technologies, but someone could play with it. ;)
Regards! :)
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So it it looks like the Bis owners are going to wait a bit longer for a solution but I am sure that it is do-able. I will have to get my hands on a Bis distributor to explore the possibilities.
Deyan your english is fine and easier to understand than some of our locals when they use text speak :D
Last chapter in my fitting - When refitting the distributor to the engine line up the distributor body and rotor arm as near as you can to how they came out. As Deyan says the two wires are just a bit too short and I did not want any messy connections so after kicking around a few ideas I ended up bending the coil mounting bracket and also sliding the coil up in the bracket to bring it as close to the engine as possible . I could then connect the wires direct with about 2.5cms of slack to allow for engine movement. Static timing is now not possible so you have to fire up the engine and preferably set the timing with a strobe but you can just rotate the distributor until you get the engine running the best then play it by ear.
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hi everyone in the forum, i hope you all had a nice holiday. After reading all your positive comments on the Ultra-Spark ignition kit, i went for it and ordered one from good old ebay. My Fiat 500 is a daily runner and starts fine, but the thought of not having to replace or check points ever again made my mind up. Kit arrived on time, the problem is it doesn't work! I'm talking about a head scratching issue here. I don't get any spark whatsoever. When i revert it back to points it starts perfectly ok, thus eliminating any coil or electrical issues. I've done the swap now at least 7-8 times, and same story, no spark at all with the electronic ignition, and perfect spark with the points. Fortunately Ultra-Spark are only local, and they tested in front of me a new module and then mine on their test rig and i could see that there is a signal and a spark. But why doesn't it work on my car? I have no idea. Any suggestions will be very very much appreciated. Before anyone asks, battery is perfect, wiring all correct, and yes i connected the red wire to +ve on the coil and black to -ve.
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Sounds like the centre is not aligned with the plate correctly, giving you
No trigger
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i checked that, and it all seems fine. I dropped off the whole dizi assembly, Ultra spark had a look at it. They just got back to me. It all seems fine and works on their test rig! I really don't get this. How comes with points fitted i get a good spark, but not with the electronic ignition? I will re-fit on the engine for the 9th time and report back.
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When you say that there is no spark is that because the engine will not fire or did you try a plug out of the engine to get a visual on the spark ?
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Mine didn't work as a straight drop-in. I had to turn the dizzy substantially from its original timing setting. You first need to make sure that it is in fact not sparking at all. It might just be that your timing will be out by a lot like mine was.
I ended up twisting the dizzy while starting the car until it fired up, to look for the correct timing.
Good luck.
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When you say that there is no spark is that because the engine will not fire or did you try a plug out of the engine to get a visual on the spark ?
hi Rusty, the answer is both. It wont fire up (when set up/timed using points) and also visualy, by using a plug out.
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Mine didn't work as a straight drop-in. I had to turn the dizzy substantially from its original timing setting. You first need to make sure that it is in fact not sparking at all. It might just be that your timing will be out by a lot like mine was.
I ended up twisting the dizzy while starting the car until it fired up, to look for the correct timing.
Good luck.
that's interesting. Many thanks. I'm not the only one then. With a plug out there is nothing at all. There is a lot of axial play on the trigger disk. I had to put tape on the shaft to get it to stay in one position. I suppose that mean the timing is miles out. I just collected the dizi assembly from Ultra Spark. I saw it being tested on their rig, and with the 2 plugs connected it sparked fine. They said i should not have to change timing at all. Not sure about that.
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what type of ht leads are you using as i know the 123 does not work with solid core leads and perhaps this is a similar occasion and my need the silicon type ?
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an up-date, and the plot thickens. Coil, dizi, plug leads, spark plugs etc are all connected but off the car, then i connected the +ve side on the coil to the +ve on the battery and the body to earth and turned the dizi by hand fast and i get a spark!!!
Next step was to connect the lead from the ignition at the back of the car. Again turned by hand, and i have spark! This looks promising i thought.
Bolted down the coil in it's place, again turn the dizi by hand fast and i have spark. Put the dizi on the block cranked the engine with ignition on, NOTHING no spark at all (with spark plugs out of the engine of course). Took it off, turned it by hand and guess what.... it sparks. At around mid-night i gave up... So the starter does not turn the engine fast enough perhaps? It sounds ok, in terms of cranking speed, and the car always started ok on points.....I'll check the voltage reading before and after cranking the engine, and see how that goes.
Any ideas out there? Please? this is driving me mad!
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Maybe you have a connectivity issue? It sounds like you're not getting any spark when the dizzy is grounded?
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yes, possible, i will go through it again today. It must be something simple. Otherwise if it's the speed of the starter, i've had it.
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maybe that the eletronic pickup is getting a to low voltage when you crank the engine.. if you maybe try to connect the coil and electronic pick up to a spare battery if you have, and see if it fires then..
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I do not think that the engine cranking speed is the problem. When it has been tested by Ultra-spark and yourself is that getting a spark at the plugs via the distributor cap or just an ht lead from the coil ? You mentioned that the magnetic trigger rotor was loose on the spindle. It is supposed to locate on the points cam, could this be way out of sync with the rotor arm ?
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Hi Rusty, many thanks for your suggestion all of you in the forum. The solution from Ultra spark, was .....insulation tape on the shaft. We calculated at work the position of the magnets on the trigger, and it's in the correct place. No movement now. I think i got to the bottom of it now. I borrowed a spare battery, and connected the ignition side of the engine, as a kit with leads and spark plugs and turned it by hand, and there is spark there.(thus eliminating electrical gremlings) I then bolted it in the car, the starter all is doing is rotating it, and again no spark. I remembered then that it's turning at 1/2 engine speed. I then took it out again and tried to replicate that speed by hand and yes, no spark. Basically my starter is too slow. Or the battery is not up to spec. It says on the battery that it's a 33Amp, and i think it should be 45?
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I never knew these have a "minimum" speed. I would be very surprised.
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well at the suppliers test rig, bellow a certain speed, (i must check with him) there was no spark. When i tried this at home, on my battery only test, same story.
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Im sure its down to alignment, when you put the dizzy in place it pushes the cog up slightly
One way of checking Remove the distributor connect a tester on continuity to the wires and turn it slowly it it should make a circuit no matter what speed it's going at, do the same test pushing on the cog.
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many thanks, just did that, got continuity, both conditions.
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hi everyone in the forum, i hope you all had a nice holiday. After reading all your positive comments on the Ultra-Spark ignition kit, i went for it and ordered one from good old ebay. My Fiat 500 is a daily runner and starts fine, but the thought of not having to replace or check points ever again made my mind up. Kit arrived on time, the problem is it doesn't work! I'm talking about a head scratching issue here. I don't get any spark whatsoever. When i revert it back to points it starts perfectly ok, thus eliminating any coil or electrical issues. I've done the swap now at least 7-8 times, and same story, no spark at all with the electronic ignition, and perfect spark with the points. Fortunately Ultra-Spark are only local, and they tested in front of me a new module and then mine on their test rig and i could see that there is a signal and a spark. But why doesn't it work on my car? I have no idea. Any suggestions will be very very much appreciated. Before anyone asks, battery is perfect, wiring all correct, and yes i connected the red wire to +ve on the coil and black to -ve.
if i am reading this correctly this is wired up wrong
the points switch the neutral with the original points system, why does it need a positive supply? surely if the the circuit has continuity from the postive and the negative you are creating a dead short?
if you leave the negative to the coil from the accu spark and put the postive from the accu spark to earth then surely it should work?
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i have spent the past couple of hours looking into this :o
The wiring is correct as is explained from accu spark the small unit has a built in transistor and other electrical gubbins to work.
(you wouldnt of thought so in such small unit)
with the dizzy disconnected spinning the end will create the hall effect needed to make the unit switch, should it be slow or fast it should work you may have a slightly sticky unit and might be worth a visit back to the shop to get it tested when its running slowly.
they give a moneyback gurantee :P
in theory it shouldnt work whilst disconnected from the engine as the low tension cable wouldnt be getting a earth from the engine
http://www.jetav8r.com/Vision/Ignition/CDI.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Te5YYVZiOKs&feature=related
http://www.mgbreakers.com/accuspark/index.html
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Does your starter turn slower than this?
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b__ljir7YM0[/youtube]
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No.
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LOL I was asking Cos124 because I have electronic ignition fitted & obviously it starts.
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when you try to start the engine do you depress the clutch pedal as this takes some load off the flywheel and is reccomended for starting?
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LOL I was asking Cos124 because I have electronic ignition fitted & obviously it starts.
hi, sorry for the late reply, i was away for a day. Actually ny starter speed sounds about the same. Hard to confirm without measuring it. borrowed a new strong 45amp batterty, and it made no diffrence, so i've removed the starter and i'm sending it away to have it checked. Trying to eliminate parts and see haow it goes. When i get the starter back i should ceck to see if the battery lead to the starter is healthy and there is no drop.
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LOL I was asking Cos124 because I have electronic ignition fitted & obviously it starts.
forgot to ask, is yous Ultra spark? or 123?
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LOL I was asking Cos124 because I have electronic ignition fitted & obviously it starts.
forgot to ask, is yous Ultra spark? or 123?
Ultraspark from seller ignitionland on eBay.
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Just got my starter back from a local guy who's done a brilliant job recoditioning it. Fitted it and it sounds like is running at least 5 times faster than before! Car fires up perfectly. Yes! Went around in circles, eliminating connection issues, earth etc, but the starter speed was the issue. Thanks everyone for your help.