Club126UK
Fiat 126 Chat => Fiat 126 Mechanical Problem Solving => Topic started by: UnaBellaDonna on March 10, 2011, 08:51:32 AM
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Sorry about the attempt at humour :oops:
Just a quickie. Is it usual to have the odd spot of oil on the ground when car is standing after it has been used? It is only a spot each time. The sump is nice and dry and there are no visible signs of any leaks/engine nice and clean. Oil level constant. There is also the odd splash on the inside of the engine door but I assume that this is from all the rocking and rolling these little engines do?
Cheers
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Mmmmmm, not a spot on my garage floor.
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I'll lend you a few if you like [-/
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Allo , allo , I thank you may have a smoll lick there :oops:
No humour here either :D but on a more serious note in a perfect world there would be no leaks from the engine. You should be able to do a little bit of detective work by following the path of the drip back up to the engine etc. If the oil is coming out as a fine mist/spray then it is probably being blown out perhaps past the rocker cover filler , dip stick or distributor base. Sounds a bit silly but if you get some toilet tissue & tie it round the appropriate areas with a little tape you can check for leaks when the engine is up to temperature. Oil can also be flung out from the dynamo pulley, oil film on the outside would indicate a problem with the oil filter o-ring seal or oil on the back of the pulley would indicate a problem with the crankshaft oil seal [-/
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I thank you Sir.
I suspect it is coming from the dynamo pulley myself but I will do a bit of a Hercule Poirot this Saturday to see.
Cheers.
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Also check if the oil could be coming out of the rubber gaitors from the gearbox where the shafts go in. Could be an oil seal about to go.
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If you flatten a large cardboard box push it under the engine and gearbox to determine whether the leak is coming from the front or the back of the engine or gearbox ;)
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just a question that i would like to ask is when you purchased this car was it described as having had a full restoration? and did that mean both mechanical and structually? if so the person who sold this car to you if selling cars as a dealer is obliged under law to make good any faults or defects that were not advertised if you feel the need.
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Thanks Guys.
Had a crawl under her earlier. The front of the sump and underside had a small amount of oil present. I ran her for 15 minutes and a drop appeared on the front underside of the sump. This is where the drip is coming from. And it is only a drip or two after every use (plus whatever comes out whilst travelling).
I was told that a spray of oil from the engine on the engine cover was nothing usual by the seller and I questioned this as odd but was told it was normal. The engine is a 650cc replacement and is spotless. I'm going to get the car on my mates ramp and we'll have a look. Don't suspect anything too sinister. She runs very well otherwise.
To answer the restoration question. She wasn't a bare metal respray, I found out. She was body off and full respray. The original body was in quite good nick as I've seen a photo. The car has been restored, the underside is waxoyled and almost mint. The bodywork, whilst not the best spray job ever would rate at about 8.5/10. The inside is immaculate. All wheels and tires are new and, as I say, a new engine.
She is in remarkably good nick for a 37 year old car. I was just a bit dewy eyed when I bought her and wasn't as sharp as normal.
You'll have to bear with me as I'm not used to old motors but have the time and inclination to put her right.
Some of my questions might make you groan and headbutt the keyboard.......
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Found it. :(
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If my monocular enhancement facilitating device is working correctly then you seem to be indicating a leak at the back of the sump or the rear crankshaft oil seal. Also the arrangement at the bottom of the fan housing where it connects to the cooling channels in the sump looks a bit odd to me but it may be just the picture.
Who did you say supplied the New/Recon engine for the car ???
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Yep, it's at the top front of the sump. A fine spray on starting the car. The engine? Not sure but there is some Ricambi info but it doesn't relate to the engine. Its definately a recon.
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Check round the back of the rocker cover I had a leak in the same place and thought the worse but it was the rocker gasket leaking,
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Have a look at the sump gasket aswell, the sumps are often overtightened which pushes the sump gasket out and onto the flywheel, it then pulls the gasket and you get an oil leak.
Happened on my engine, only realised after i pulled the engine out, and about to replace the rear seal!
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Cheers Guys.
Having looked closer now, in the daylight, it looks almost certainly to be the sump gasket. If I get chance I'll drop the sump off in the next week.
If it is, any recommendations on whether I go for an original gasket or a modern alternative given your experiences?
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I just use the gaskets which come in the sets, a hard black rubber type. I have used some of the older dark brown , cork style gasket which have also been fine. Just watch when you tighten it up that you dont push the gasket out too much, just nip it up nicely.
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Might be a good excuse to go for an alloy sump [-/
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I thought that too. Going to weigh it all up once I can get her in the air and take a good look. :oops:
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FINALLY got her jacked up to take a good look. Sump wet all allround the top and gasket looks squeezed/pinched in places. Still not found enough time to drop the sump but I will. Do you guys rate the classic car oil or should I go for a standard oil when I relace the gasket?
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I realise that I have already left the impression of being an idiot but today capped the lot. Having picked up my sump gasket, I paraded home to remove the sump. As I got my axle stands from the shed I passed the box of engine bits and had a looky see. There, on the top, in a clear bag, with the word GASKETS emblazoned on it....................was a new sump gasket along with a selection of others. :oops:
Anyhoo, new gasket on and fresh oil................too early to say but no seepage and had it running. The bolts on the sump were barely tight when I removed it and I think this didn't help with the problem.
Not being a mechanic or knowing much other than brakes/oil/etc and doing the whole job myself (having only three fingers as well....yes they let a guy with only three fingers drive unmodified, manual cars) I feel I deserve one of those Karma things that you get. I don't know how or why you get them but it wouldn't half cheer me up. ;D
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I don't know why but I have to tighten the sump bolts on a regular basis. I replaced the originals with stainless screws.
Ralph
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Karma! Boo-yah!! Thanks.
I think it is fairly common to need to tighten them from time to time, according to a couple of people I know who also have 126's. Whether it's specific to a steel sump, the screws or gasket type, who knows?
I ran mine today to check for leaks and one or two were barely more than finger tight. I worked clockwise and nipped them back up.
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Another thing that can cause oil leaks on the older car like the Fiat 126 is the use of synthetic engine oil. I prefer to use a mineral type oil for any old design motors.
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That's what I used to refill it, a "classic" type oil. People seem split over what to use but I felt this would suit the engine better.
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Hi guys,
I don't know why anyone wouldn't use a synthetic oil nowadays- if the engine is properly assembled it won't leak.
Synthetics are great- I have used them in all my 500's and 126's for the last 20yrs with no oil leaks and no engine failures in that time. Bear in mind that we have 40 degree + temps down here and with long distances at 100km/h the "classic" (old fashioned) oils just really can't handle that sort of treatment. I stopped using mineral oils in the early 90's after I found that I could smell Castrol GTX cooking on a long uphill run and it just turned to water. In the colder weather the engine also warms up much faster with less choke and even the timing chains don't seem to wear as quickly.
I never understand the logic of using a cheap oil and changing it more often- doesn't protect the engine as well and is more hassle and waste- 2.5 litres of 10W60 fully synthetic once per year is cheap insurance in my book!
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Like I say, people differ on what is best. I'd never use a cheap oil on any engine. My car will only do trips of 30-40 miles tops but mostly 10-20 miles around the countryside. I hope..... :o
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I've only just seen and read /skimmed thru this thread and am amazed that no one has commented about the open flywheel ?
I understand you bought the car with a supposed rebuilt motor or had a rebuilt motor fitted ??
Well, there should be a steel shield enclosing the clutch and flywheel to stop all the poo off the road getting at it. Go and buy one now and fit it !!!!! Only takes 4 small set screws ( bolts without nuts).
Your Starter, clutch and thrust bearings will have a much longer life than if you don't.
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Hmm Damon500 has a point there, never thought of that.
I know synthetic brake fluid is supposed to be alot better than mineral, higher temps it will work to etc but brain went on vacation when buying oil for the 126 :$
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here in germany nearly nobody uses synthetic oil.
We use mineral oil and prefer 20W50.
Synthetic oil is said to keep dirt swimming and loosening old dirt because of the cleansing additives in it. That leads to the problem, that the centrifugal oil filter won't filter anything and therefore more dirt will be brought to the bearings...
Synthetic oil probably can be used in new or fully cleaned engines. In old engines with unknown history I would not use synthetic oil...
(I hope, you understand what I mean)
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I guess synthetic is a modern oil designed for engines with modern oil filters.
Nothing wrong with your English Alfons!
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Interesting comment Alfons..
I have never experienced the problem with synthetic oils that you have described- have used full synthetics in old engines- my current 126 engine had 80,000km on it when I started using synthetic and is now up to 107000km and running fine.
In the many years I have been a mechanic I have seen many engines of all brands suffering from severe internal engine wear through using poor quality oils- there is one model of Alfa Romeo that can suffer camshaft failure within 20000km if a semi synthetic oil is used instead of the full synthetic recommended. I have seen another model that had a tendency to 'run' big end bearings after an oil change using semi-synthetic oil- change to full synthetic and the problem entirely disappeared.
The problem you are referring to with the suspension of dirt in the oil was common when changing from monograde oils to multigrade type- if the engine has a lot of sludge in it from use of cheap oil and infrequent changes then any good quality oil (synthetic or otherwise) will loosen the dirt deposits.
I think the best advice is if your engine is old and dirty and the oil colours quickly after changing then flush it (you can just use kerosene or diesel mixed with engine oil)
The main thing to consider in terms of protection of the bearings is the shear strength of the lubricant and viscosity stability. In my opinion the 20w50 mineral oil simply just doesn't retain enough viscosity to protect an air cooled engine in extreme hot weather conditions- in cold weather the oil flows better too and the car warms up quicker meaning less choke required and consequently less dilution of the oil from excess fuel... but at the end of the day it is your choice!
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I googled Synthetic oils fiat and the following came-up off another forum:
There more differences than just cooling. Old engines with flat tappets rely on a lubricant called zinc dithiophosphate (ZDDP) to prevent the cam shafts from being worn out. The levels of ZDDP is being reduced/eliminated in oils as they reduce the effectiveness of catalytic converters. This is an especially important issue after a rebuild, but I'm trying to find out the impact on older engines generally.
Until I'm sure, I am switching to an oil I know to be okay. I recently posted to say I am using Dukhams thinking that was okay, but I am having to double-check as someone told me it isn't - I am checking out which other oils are "safe". So far I have found that Redline and Millers are fine. From what I have read any oils labelled "API ILSAC GF-4" are to be avoided as they are the worst of all. Diesel rated oils should be fine as diesels also need ZDDP. Needless to say, using these modern sythetics in a gearbox doesn't seems a good plan (it was/is common practice with older cars to use the same oil in the engine and box).
This ZDDP issue is causing a lot of concern and could be far more serious for old Fiat owners than the "should I use fuel additive" debate. Cam grinders are reporting cams wearing out in no time, despite plenty of moly being used on rebuild. Google ZDDP and you'll see plenty of chatter about it.
Another issue I have come across - anyone rebuilding their engine should also avoid modern synthetics until the pistons rings are thoroughly seated - with modern oils rings can fail to seat for thousands of miles!
(Note: ZDDP isn't required in modern four stroke engines - flat tappets are not a feature of modern engines)
The next reply was all for synthetic oils :-
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Wow there seems to be more to this oil question than I first imagined!
I've always assumed oil to be much of a muchness! :$ :$
I found this one on a 500 website and he seems very confident of what he says which backs-up alot of the Mineral oil guys out there:
For those who like reading and want another point of view, below is reproduced an edited version of the article I referred to earlier which is aimed at the VW aircooled owner but the same principles apply to a 500.....
This article and the information contained in it, is truly independant of any fuel company or product manufacturer. There is no bias, blame or solicited promotion. It is written by a professional fuels chemist whose hobby for over 12 years has been restoring aircooled VWs.
Engine oil
There are many myths abounding about oil - which is no surprise as oil is doubly important in an aircooled engine. Why is it important? Two reasons - an aircooled engine runs hotter than its water cooled brethren. and also because oil has a secondary duty of assisting in extracting heat from the engine.
Two such myths are explained:
Myth One - "use diesel oil"
Many many many (etc) years ago, there was a diesel oil made by Shell which was a wonderful substitute for the correct oil for the Beetle. This was about the time that multigrades were in their infancy on the forecourt. Many small non VW garages swore by this certain diesel engine oil - and so they should have - it did the right job. HOWEVER this oil can no longer be bought and there is no substitute - and just like chinese whispers, the detail gets lost as rumours spread from generation to generation.
DO NOT USE DIESEL ENGINE OIL UNLESS IT ALSO HAS AN API RATING OF AT LEAST "SH"
Myth Two - "don't use multigrade"
This myth stems from the early days of multigrades when the viscosity index improvers of different brands often clashed, with bad results. This meant that you couldn't top your oil up with another brand.
With modern day oils this is no longer a problem.
Synthetic oil
Because of the formulation process (and the increased advertising that these oils have), synthetic oils are also more expensive than mineral oils - but are they right for a street VW? The simple and current answer is NO. Although one or two oil companies are working on synthetic oils with improved thermal absorption, most synthetic oils do not absorb heat well. This may be good news for a water cooled Le Mans racer, but this is extremely bad news for an air cooled car such as a VW or Porsche where oil has a secondary role as a coolant.
Summary
For a street aircooled VW, regardless of age or whether itis stock or gets used on the strip at weekends, use an SAE 10W40 multigrade with a minimum of SH rating. Never use diesel engine oil (unless it has a minimum API SH grade too).
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Off to change my oil :$
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isnt that a bit of common sense not to use diesel oil unless its a diesel?
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It was explained how people did use diesel oil at some stage.
Nowhere has anyone mentioned cooking oil, I find a drizzle of olive oil on sausages to be good.
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i would recommend the use of garlic oil on the bad boy wide bodied barbie conversion.
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;D
ground pepper :P
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I know this thread is/was more about engine oils but i'd like to liven up the question of gearbox oils again: what type is best as the service book says 80W/90. For some reason every single half axle rubber boot i've fitted has started leaking and i'm believing to suspect it's because of the oil. There's also a small leak from the side (where the selector shaft retaining pins are) even though i changed the gasket on it and put some grease on the gasket paper too and from the rear housing where the selector rod goes in (o-ring was replaced there too). I'm looking for some sort of additive that will make the oil 'stick' to the parts better and will stop the leakage. The gearbox works fine (can select gears properly and only has a tiny whine in 4th gear which is something i've experienced with many 126's) but i have noticed that even at a standstill 1st does engage with a small grind sometimes ( after putting it into e.g. 2nd before engaging 1st it shifts smoothly).
I bought a bottle of STP engine oil treatment to test and see how it will work in this hot weather (i reckon these old engines just don't like the new oils in some way), no problems with the engine either (no smoke emitted for e.g.) but the level does go down a bit after a week of usage....
Any ideas on gearbox oil?
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Gt master when you change the halfshaft boot rubber did you change the oil seal inside?
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Hi,
I changed the large O-rings as well when i had the gearbox out. The rubber boot itself has a seal in it where the shaft comes through.... i've just checked the service book as well. There is a seal at the end of the metal sleeve, but that is in one piece with the rubber boot... either that or i've been sooo blind and not replaced that (or fitted it) since i expected that to be already fitted into the rubber boot (i don't remember the old ones i took off when i had the gearbox off to have a seperate seal in it...) :$
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I'd also like to ask which gearbox oil is recommended as I'm hopefully starting work on my 126 BIS next week and one of the first things i want to do is check the box oil :)