Club126UK
Welcome to the CLUB126UK Forum => Introduce Yourself => Topic started by: damon500 on January 08, 2011, 11:43:30 AM
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Hi everyone, congratulations on the site- it is great to see the 126 appreciated for the great car it is!
I owned several 126's and Niki's in New Zealand during my younger years and currently own a 1969 Fiat 500F, 2008 Fiat 500 Pop and 1961 500 Giardiniera. I am finally starting on the long restoration project of the Giardiniera and would like some advice on upgrading it using 126 Bis parts (we don't have them here) If anyone can help I have posted in the tech section. Thanks- I look forward to getting to know you! :D
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Hi damon500 , welcome to the forum & the crazy gang [-/
Looked at your listings & not entirely sure what you are proposing. Complete Bis engine & gearbox swop or building a hybrid ???
Re gearbox you can swop the Bis mounts to the aircooled type. All of the bell housings are interchangeable across the range I believe to suit the various engines. Flywheel issue not sure about. 500 engine on a Bis gearbox is not a good idea unless the engine has been upgraded to give more power [-/
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Hi Rusty, thanks for the reply.
I am planning a hybrid... what I would like to do is fit a 126 clutch and gearbox into my Giardiniera and upgrade the engine with 650 pistons and barrels. Unfortunately we never had the 126 Bis in NZ or Australia so I have never seen one.
What I would like to know is if a Fiat 126 Bis gearbox bellhousing will bolt up to the Giardiniera motor- if anyone has a Bis gearbox and flywheel lying around I would appreciate it if they could take some measurements for me so I can work out if it will fit...
Unfortunately I just discovered the Giardiniera has had a massive front end accident at some stage in its life which has been very poorly repaired- the floor is badly buckled and the leaf spring mount is nearly 20mm further back on the left hand side... Seeing as I am going to have to cut out and replace the whole front end of the bulkhead and floor i'm thinking of fitting a 126 steering rack while i'm in there too!
This project is going to keep me off the streets for quite some time... :D
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Hi Mate was this the car for sale on ebay recently !! RED unfinished project ?
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:D Been on skype to NZ & Oz this morning so it seems to be a theme for today [-/
Anyway I would love to hear about your 126 exploits with a 126 in New Zealand as I believe that they were such rare birds there with less than 100 official new car imports as opposed to the Bambina that was part manufactured in NZ.
As to your hybrid I would think you could go for a Bis syncro gearbox (with reverse light switch option), 500 mounts and the Giardiniera bell housing so you know it will fit . I have a spare Bis bell housing here but not a Giardiniera to compare although there is a guy who lives fairly local who may have one. An upgraded clutch will fit inside the standard bell housing but you may want to consider a 127 or Panda 30 as opposed to a Bis depending upon your intended engine upgrade. I guess that you know that the crankcase will need to be bored out to take the larger barrels plus you can do a lot with the cylinder head . I would guess that you have the makings there of a super little motor and despite the body damage well worth the effort :D
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Welcome to the forum Damon,
As Rusty said the gearbox is not a problem, Just swap the bell-housing.
There are plenty of 500 sedans that have the 650 engine and gearbox swap so the physical size isn't a problem, The bis gearbox is identical to the Niki except it has a higher final drive the fly wheel is different on the bis as its counterbalanced because it uses a different designed crankshaft, there are 4 large holes drilled in one side (see photo) so i would look for a good Niki gearbox and flywheel ;)
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Hi Guys,
Thanks for the replies- no, mine hasn't been on the market- in 2009 I dragged it out of a very leaky carport in Geelong where it was sitting for 20 years so definitely not red (lots of brown though...)
My Giardiniera bellhousings are no good as they are for the early coil spring clutch and the diff is smaller so won't mate up properly (or fit a 126 diff which I want to fit) I already have 2 Niki gearboxes which are in surprisingly good condition so if I could get either a 500"F" (Autobianchi) Giardiniera bellhousing and flywheel I will be fine- however I think a bis Flywheel and bellhousing might be a lot easier to find. The air cooled flywheels are balanced differently and don't have the big holes- thanks for the pics- hence I need one to run the 126/127 clutch without the whole lot shaking itself to pieces.. Rusty I would be interested if you could measure the spacing between the stud holes on the Bis bellhousing- if these measurements are the same I think it is a pretty good bet- however if you know someone who has a spare Giardiniera Bellhousing and Flywheel I would be very keen to talk! Re: the 126's in NZ I owned about 10 of them when I was over there so there was definitely more than 100 around- they were imported in two forms all air cooled 650cc: from 1981-1984 as 126 Personal 4 and 1988-90 as the Niki- interestingly the Niki's were all 1986 built cars and appear to be UK spec but with KMH speedo- with quite different specs to the Australian cars which were 89-90 models :D
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Good to see another southie. Lots of aussies joining up recently, we'll take over the joint soon enough. Looks like i'm still the only member in Sydney, unless Dom's still holidaying at the northern beaches ;D
By the way, Oz Nikis went from 89-94. I have a couple of 93 compliance plate models.
Keep the G engine original and just put a 650cc in it :P lot cheaper and easier for the same result :oops:
Lots of good knowledge on here, welcome.
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Yes that is an early Station wagon and a bit off experience. I looked at the drawings in the Fiat workshop manual but not much on the Giardiniera but there was one sectional drawing of the clutch that shows a more restricted area on the bell housing compared to the Sedan/Saloon. So went digging in my shed and pulled out a 500 , a 126 aircooled and a Bis bell housing so picture will be posted. Looks like the Bis main mounts are out of sync with the aircooled but thinking outsde of the box I reckoned that the top section and bolt hole on the 126 unit did not do an awful lot so why not just cut that part of the casting away ???
As for the 126 in NZ thing , a guy came on the forum last year, Allan who is in NZ and he had the job of driving all of the official imported 126s off the boat & off the top of my head he said there were about 97 of them. He had just bought on on Trade Me (Kiwi eBay) . So I guess the others would have been unofficial imports. Hope to visit Allan in March / April as I just booked my flights at the weekend. Had hoped to touch down in Sydney but can't fit it in this trip. I suppose my son's wedding has to take priority but if things work out then I may get another chance to look round "scrap yard heaven" at the Horopito Car Wreckers yard [-/
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Managed to do it again & not post the picture :oops:
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Hi Rusty, that's brilliant- I have compared to my bellhousing to the Bis one and it looks perfect to mate up to the Giardiniera motor. The early 500"D" Giardiniera has a coil spring clutch and 6 spline input shaft with carbon thrust bearing and different release fork. The 500F/126/127 clutch won't fit
FYI Gsxr126- the 126Bis and 500 Giardiniera have the motor tilted 90 degrees clockwise so the engine is "flat" if I put a sedan motor in the wagon it would stick up through the floor which kind of defeats the purpose of having a wagon...! ;D
So the current plan is: 126 650 barrels fitted to a bored out Giardiniera Crankcase (with decompression shims under barrels) and Bis Flywheel with 126/127 Diaphragm clutch and 126/bis starter
126 (Niki) Gearbox fitted with Bis bellhousing, 500R axles, 500F Swing arms and maybe a 5 speed conversion (have fitted one on my 500F with Niki motor and box and it is the best!)
So: things I cant get in Australia are: Bis Bellhousing, Flywheel and Starter- (don't mind if it is cable or solenoid type or not working) does anyone have all 3 spare that they would be happy to sell and send downunder? :D
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Further to the comments on 126's and 500's in NZ- I would agree that there were about 100 Nikis bought in to NZ and probably all on one boat in about 1987. The Niki was never badged as a Fiat - it was an FSM but was sold through the Fiat dealer network. The 126 Personal 4 however was imported in small numbers over several years from 1981-84 and there was definitely more than one shipment of these so overall there was certainly more than 97- although i'm sure there were less than 500 in total. There were very few unofficial imports as NZ was heavily restricted until 1987 and then the floodgates opened to allow imported used cars- mainly from Japan at only 10% GST on the purchase price- which was often only scrap value. This caused the local car market to collapse and the Ladas, FSO Polonez and Yugo which sold steadily in NZ through to the late 80's disappeared overnight as Kiwis jumped into pre owned orientals with strange names and all odometers wound back to 40,000km irrespective of age and condition [-/ The Fiat 500 thrived in NZ due to the heavy import restrictions that applied through to the late 80's and over 5000 were sold in NZ. To buy a car in NZ in the 60's you needed "overseas funds" if you didn't have this you could forget about a new car. Torino Motors- the Fiat importer exploited a government policy to assemble the 500 with a high "local content" thus creating jobs in NZ and reducing imports- because of this you could buy a 500 without overseas funds and as cars were generally very expensive the 500 was attractive and sold well. NZ 500's were assembled from CKD (kitset) but had NZ made Glass, Tyres, Exhaust, Wiring, Upholstery and Carpets and were badged as "Bambina" from 1965 with the 500F model. Local assembly finished around 1971 and my 1973 500F was in fact a Sicillian built car from the last batch imported in late 1972. If you get a chance- have a read of the book "Bambina" by Todd Niall- it is a great read on the history of the 500 in NZ- and the Yellow 500 on the cover is my car which I have owned since 1991 and has only travelled 30,000mls since new! :)
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Oh you mean this book with your nice yellow car on the cover :D
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My son bought me the Bambina book in New Zealand a year or so back , still got the $44.99 sticker on the back. I loved it and mentioned it on one of the Fiat forums. To my surprise Todd Niall got in touch with me and thanked me for raising the profile of his book in the UK. We had a bit of an e-mail dialogue at the time about the Fiat 500s in NZ. What a crazy small world we live in ;D
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Hi Rusty,
Yes, that is the one! Todd is a great guy- although we both lived in NZ I met him for the first time in Garlenda in 2007 when we took our 1969 500F (picture in the back of the book) on the tour europa with the German club from Hamburg through to Garlenda then around Italy, France and the UK- 6000km in 4 weeks! My old employers in NZ are also in the book- David and John Harman- sadly John passed away in 2009. Todd has also written a book on the "Trekka" a NZ designed and built off road vehicle with Skoda Mechanicals! :)
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hey, damon!
is this you: look there at 0:20...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTx7J19jDoM
^8)
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Hi Alfons,
Thanks for the link, no that is Lang and Bev Kidby also from Australia who drove their 500 around the world!
Here is another link- you can see us around 1.43 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hqyo_ImTB3s&feature=related
We met torsten in 2007 and he was very helpful- please pass on my best wishes if you talk to him! :)
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oh, you know Torsten? this is the ilmotore-Torsten from www.ilmotore.de
Just ask him about your giardiniera... He is one of the best adresses about Fiat 500 in germany!
The Tour Europa is said to have been one of the most amazing events for every Fiat500 driver. I'm so sorry, I haven't taken part...
But I know many of the participants...
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How does the fuel and oil etc stay in the cars down under? :P
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Hi Darrell, We have special anti-gravity lubricants and fuels which solve the problem combined with a driving style involving cornering on 3 wheels to keep the lubricants and fuel on the sides of their respective vessels [-/
Seriously however - due to the big temperature changes in a day you must make sure that you don't completely fill the fuel tank of a 500 in summer or you can get a very large fuel leak out the breather as it expands! Careful assembly of the engine and transmission is also required if you want to keep modern synthetic oils from escaping- I do get a leak from my steering box however on days above 40 degrees C >:(
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The secret to the recent Pommy cricket success is revealed.
The team were made to live in the custom built house for months before departing for 'downunder'
PS ex-african here so understand about heat ;)
Electric fuel pump is a must as the fuel simply evaporates out the bowl :P
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Aha! I thought we just forgot how to bowl, catch or bat but we will have to look into the secret training regime when we come to reclaim the prize next time :oops:
Too right about the evaporation, can be a problem even at idle after a few minutes and certainly on hot start- luckily those extremely hot days are relatively rare down here in Melbourne (thankfully my "new" Fiat 500 has airconditioning so I tend to drive it on really wet or really hot days)- otherwise for the rest of the year my 500F is a great daily driver!
There has been a new scheme introduced where classic cars over 30yrs old can qualify for a 90 day registration for 1/3 of the normal cost- so i'm looking forward to getting the Giardiniera on the road! :)
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They tight down there! My 500F is free here [-/
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Bloody rta, 1/4 of a years rego for 1/3 of the cost. Typical money making govt departments. It may suit if your tight for cash but your definately not getting good value there. I pay $570 for my green slip, $278 rego, $80 for a custom plate, & $35 for a pink slip. $40 change from 1K to drive my car for a year. >:(
And thats for my standard niki. You dont want to know what the total rego cost for my corty is :o
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Hmmm Government also translates to Legalised robbery there too....
:P
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Interesting, I have done some research as the new scheme comes in here on February 1- I think it is time for you to move to Victoria as we get rorted a lot less here! My registration renewal on the 500F is $624.10 total for 12 months full rego with no Pink slip, Green slip or custom plate charge.. Until 1 Feb however a club registered car in Victoria could only be used for a car club event gazetted in the club magazine- club cars must be over 25yrs old and must be a current financial member of the club- annual cost was $38.20. Some clubs were taking liberties with the old system and declaring "mystery runs" every weekend so there was a crack down. :-X The outgoing State Labour Government rammed the new system through after several years procrastination and then got voted out...democracy at work! This new system means that you can use your car up to 90 days per year of your choosing for $38.20 per year provided each day is entered in the logbook- If you are stopped by police and are without an entry there are some stiff fines aparrently. I am thinking if I have the Giardiniera and 500F on the road at $38.20 each = 180 days that should be ample as I usually drive the new 500 and wifes Alfa 156 for the balance... :D