Club126UK
Fiat 126 Chat => Fiat 126 Mechanical Problem Solving => Topic started by: bath126p on August 30, 2010, 09:13:08 PM
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hi guys
Just finished fitting a new exhaust (standard type bought from ebay) to my 1997 126p EL.
I had to grind the flanges flat to fit the manifold elbows, but otherwise it went on ok. I've had lots of problems with the exhaust brackets breaking so I made sure these were nice and tight.
Imagine my dismay then, when after a 15 mile journey I pull over to discover the bolts that hold the exhaust to the manifold elbows have all rattled out! Any ideas as to why?
Seeing as I will have to buy some more bolts for the elbows, I may as well buy some new exhaust brackets too. Looking on 126fan.sk, it appears I have the older type. Question is, should a later car like mine have the newer type? Maybe this might be why they keep breaking? :-
http://www.126fan.sk/eshop/index.php?main_page=advanced_search_result&search_in_description=1&keyword=exhaust&x=30&y=12
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Did you have spring washers on the bolts when you put them on as they will rattle out if you dont.
Remember to use the brass long nuts on the studded end also with spring washer.
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Not too sure about the right brackets issue as there are some very ugly oval exhausts on the market. But when you get the right bits you should fit the exhaust with the elbow mounting bolts loose , get all the bits connected , tighten exhaust to elbow bolts / studs then brackets and then elbow to head. Originaly the exhaust to elbow bolts had a tab type locking washer which you can get [-/
I use stainless stud connectors with a spring washer, they cover the entire thread on the stud plus a bit so it leaves enough room for a locking grub screw , kind of a lock nut in reverse
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The exhaust is this one:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/FIAT-126-HATCHBACK-650-1987-2000-Exhaust-Rear-Silencer-/160468372408?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM
Cheap and nasty! I assume this is one of the bad ones you refer to?
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My turn. I have never liked using spring washers on exhausts that close to the head and particually on the air cooleds because they loose their tension with the heat. My preference is the bellville washers that Fiat have used for years. I'm not that keen on brass nuts either. I use the steel ones and make sure that the nut is longer than the stud. This is because the end of the stud sticking out of the nut can rust and cause all sorts of strife when you try to undo it.
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All helpful suggestions, thanks. I think I will order a new bolt kit from Slovakia and go from there, unless anyone can suggest a UK supplier?
I do love this car, but it's quite funny to think I drove it from Poland with no issues and now I can barely do ten miles! Oh well....
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Brackets in Poland are only about 15PLN, why not get them from Poland?
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Can you recommend a good supplier in Poland?
I cannot speak any Polish, and although I have some friends there I do not want to burden them as they were so helpful finding the car.
I think 126fan is my best bet. Nice and cheap too!
Hopefully I will be on UK plates by the end of next week.
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If you need brackets I have a pair in the garage - I don't have the 126 anymore so you're welcome to them :)
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Hi,
Fiat 2 cyclinder engines do like to break anything you try to bolt to them including the exhaust, the above are all correct just make 100% sure that the silencer box is bolted and fixed well tight in it's brackets because if this can oscilate at all at a diffent frequency to the engine then break it will. :cry:
Also is the silencer box itself rigid enough?not just a hollow flimsy box.
I've heard allsorts off bolt used but I have always used quality cap head bolts with steel nut and yes spring washers and never had a days problem with this. [-/
Be warned if the exhaust does move at all in it's brakets the most likely place for breakages is next to the flange that bolts to the manifold :oops:
Smallcox
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i hate aircooled exhausts i think i have had around six different in the last three years and they seem to all be made a cardboard! the last after market jobbie i put on broke both lower brackets and both downpipes ended up severed i have repaired it and have made brackets that are welded onto the box made out of 6mm mild steel plate when i get sorted i shall be brave and try again. try a bit of exhaust putty on the threads when you tighten them up as it helps bond.
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Great replies! What an excellent forum.
I think the exhaust is solid enough - not the best quality but it should be ok. If not I will get one from Poland. I have ordered a new bolt kit and brackets from 126 fan, so I will try this first. I will use the locking tabs and then spring washers. As for the brackets, more spring washers and some exhaust putty (which I'm already using)
Bit worried about the manifold issue!
And Eklipze - very kind offer thank you! Unfortunately I live miles away from Huddersfield and can't in good conscience make you post them. Yopu don't happen to live anywhere near Huddersfield Mini Spares do you? I make orders from there so they may be able to chuck them in!
Hope to get this sorted. Then its on to a disc conversion!
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don't you bring the exhaust pipe to glow with a welding flame in order to make it loose tension? only a small piece of the pipe needs to glow... look at the circle on the picture...
(http://s1.directupload.net/images/100902/temp/92n5iyz4.jpg) (http://s1.directupload.net/file/d/2270/92n5iyz4_jpg.htm)
I do that every time i mount a different exhaust. Since then i newer had problems with breaking brackets or exhaust pipes...
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I drive past Hudds Mini Spares every day on my way to/from work :)
I can't see them costing much to post, and they're only taking up space. Ohterwise, PM me next time you're making an order from HMS and I'll see about dropping them off down there for you :)
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i like the idea of heating the exhaust up so that it releives any tension caused when tightened up i shall try that theory on my wife when she is over stressed.
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oh yes! tell us, whether it worked or not! [-/
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be careful when trying this method on the wifey. we all know what happens when you take a lighter to a human exhaust
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Mine developed a strange rattle on high revs that has got worse. I thought it was the heat shield but today noticed the manifold bolts (that hold the exaust on) have vanished! Can the half moon bolts be replaced with standard ones?
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Heating the wife usually increases tension so make sure the 126 is fired up and ready to go before you try it.
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you will need to grind one side of the bolt head off to get it to fit.
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Cheers BIS13, will sort it tomorrow subject to the rain stopping!!
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Sorted the exhaust bolts (15p each with locking nuts!) :)
And then today the 3 month old exhaust breaks! :cry: Same place as last time where the manifold bolts on, mine i cant expect the quality to be there when the exhaust cost £15!!!
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I keep having one of my exhast manifolds come-off the head. Fortunately it's the one closest to the lid.
I think it's stripped the threads :(
I was thinking out of the box and wondered if there are any other options to helicoils.
Would a stainless rawlbolt be too heathen like to work?
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Darrell , I can't believe you have suggested that . That sounds like a sure fire way of writing off an otherwise good head. :oops:
I now fit studs and or helicoils if required so they do not need to be removed again. Then protect the thread with a stainless dome nut. There are alternatives to helicoils , one is Keenserts that are used on many race / rally cars and will cost you a lot more dosh ;D
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hmmm yes was a bit of a heathen suggestion however I'm loosing the will with this head of mine.
I'll look-up those fancy inserts and try some as I'm not overly confident with helicoils.
Does a 'dynamically balanced' engine rattle exhausts to bits etc etc?
I thought mine wasnt too bad, but then on a trip to Devon one of the exhaust manifold bolts worked loose. That was a fairly sedate trip maxing about 60-65mph so confused the hell out of me as she'd been good as gold till then. Even hairing down hills foot flat. Got to the point I was thinking I could drive to Naples! - NOT :-X
I managed to sort out a replacement bolt on the side of the road but i think the damage had been done to the thread and since then it's just been getting worse and worse :(
It gave no more trouble, even down to retro rides etc, but just recently on a trip back from Lymington it worked loose again and now the thread is properly knackered, luckily doesnt leak enough to fail MOT :oops:
But if I dont sort it out it'll end in tears :(
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Hi Darrell,
I had two hellicoils put in the head, not had any problems since they were done [-/
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Hey Darrell,
Have you tried thread locking compound for a quik fix? I once had the problem of an engine mount thread not being able to be fixed with a helicoil because the thread hole had flogged out too much. I ended up using max bond to hold the helicoil in place and it worked for ages.
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I been thinking about this exhaust problem alot, one of the possibilities is to cut stubs to bolt onto the head (when I get something to bolt it to) Then use the system of a spring to attach the exhaust piping to this like they do on bike end cans.
This way nearly no stress is put on the bolts on the head as the spring will allow some movement....but then I guess the exhaust pipe will self-distruct >:(
never mind, booked it in to get a hellicoil see how it goes :)
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i have a helicoil set that i bought to repair my head i suggest that you get one as they are worth there weight in gold the problem with the exhausts are that once a bolt has come undone/off it transfers all the vibration to another part of the system which is usually the weakest or most flexible part being the bolts and once they have loosened enough then the fissures will appear due to all the shaking around and as i know to well the exhaust then sheers off and bounces off down the road!
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Bis 13 of no fixed abode , M6 , M8 & M10 helicoil kits are a great investment to keep the car on the road. As for fixing heads I reckon that you & I might be a bit too far down the the road for a complete cure ::)
As for cylinder heads they are one of the Achilles Heels on the aircooled engines & have to be treated with the greatest of respect . I have seen so many heads that have been wrecked by bodges that make the problem worse. Properly fitted helicoils are in fact an upgrade on the original spec.
READ MY LIPS
If you are given the chance fit studs into the head & use nuts to remove the exhaust elbows when required. When fitting a new exhaust , slacken the elbow to head nuts or bolts , tighten the exhaust flanges to elbows , fit exhaust box mounts then nip up the elbow to head fixings. Just refitted mine today so it will probably fall off shortly but the ones that get busted generally have not been fitted correctly :oops:
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I think it's a resinanse associated problem.
My old XS11 used to break it's exhaust on a regular basis.
I then lost-it and got a complete new system, after market jobby and strangely didn't resinate.
On a bike you can feel and hear the resinance better than in a fiat I guess.
The resinance could be felt as a very high frequency vibration of the exhaust, and it only seemed to happen at 5000 rpm which. If you put your foot on the exhaust you could feel it.
How can I describe the vibration.... a but like an orbital sander?
As for the head stud and nut issue, I agree. But I'll not be calling anyone a nut-head to their face 8)
Another thing, does locktite handle head temperatures (for securing studs)
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Darrell , forget the bodges >:( you can get a helicoil kit for less than £15 . Another string to your bow for all of those forthcoming Fiat adventures :oops:
You could go with bolts but I would personally go for studs if you are thinking long term [-/
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never mind, booked it in to get a hellicoil see how it goes :)
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126fan.sk [-/
Think this will stop shake-off ;)
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I got a pair of those, didnt know what they were for so just stuck them on!
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ive refitted my twin exit exhaust that was meant for the 500 so have fitted two manifolds as spacers (around 7mm) and made up brackets myself so far it hasnt fell off so fingers crossed!
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I have to confess that my exhaust is behaving, I think running at over 70 is what caused my issue, and found that the exhaust brackets were not 100% clamping the exhaust silencer.
Gas axe and bend of brackets to make a better snug fit so crossing fingers too [-/
Helicoil certainly sorted out the thread issue! [-/
Bought the kit and thinking of getting the M6 kit too :oops:
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126fan.sk [-/
Think this will stop shake-off ;)
Sorry for resurrecting an old thread but how do you mount these? I have a pair but I can't see where they should be fitted?
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Where the exhaust joins the manifold, on the manifold side between the bolts. It's been a while but I'm 99% sure that's where they go ;)
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:D I think I have an idea.... on the manifold side underneath the heads of the bolts?
Does someone have a picture?
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My cylinder head has a sheared off bolt in the rear side, it is not leaking at the moment, but will need to be sorted. I think some clown has bonded it into the head, i tried to remove it but the head of the bolt sheared off leaving a stump not long enough to fit a nut. You should have seen the botch behind there, even the manifold had a piece hacksawed off to get it to fit :cry:.
I guess the head will have to come off soon. does anyone know how to remove a bonded stump?
Interesting thread this, i also have had a broken exhaust bracket, but now i know why.
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Those bolts into the head can "naturaly" bond / corrode into the head if they have been in place for many years. There have been so many cylinder heads bodged & ruined.
If you have enough stud to get a not on then then if you (or someone) can arc weld it over the top so you can still get a spanner on it. The intense local heat from the weld will help to free the stud up then you might be able to wind it out,
You can also get special stud remover tools that will fit a socket wrench.
Avoid the "easy-out" stud extractors like the plague as they will almost certainly shear off leaving you much worse off than when you started.
But if a stud is sheared flush to the surface then the best way is to drill it out very carefully. Centre punch the dead centre of the stud end then drill in with something like a 5mm drill (on an M8 stud). If the drill runs off a little at the start you should be able to recentralise it by angleing the drill. The correct tapping size drill for M8 is 6.8mms but if you can then go in with a 6.5mms drill you may be able to pick out the remains of the stud with a small screwdriver.
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126fan.sk [-/
Think this will stop shake-off ;)
(http://club126uk.co.uk/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5163.0;attach=3417;image)
Sorry for resurrecting an old thread but how do you mount these? I have a pair but I can't see where they should be fitted?
Think I may be stating the obvious here, but I believe that these are tab washers? and if so they require to be bent along the flat of the nut.