Club126UK
Fiat 126 Chat => Fiat 126 Mechanical Problem Solving => Topic started by: Worm on May 26, 2010, 05:12:07 PM
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Hi all, Just bought a 1983 air cooled 126.
But i have running problems.
Day 1: At 60mph it jumped around but a 55mph is cruised along no problem all the way back home which was 260miles!!
Day 2 Jumped around at a lower speed around 30mph drove it around and it got better but the best was 48mph any more and it would judder and lose power.
So I have tried the following.
I have removed and cleaned the electrical wires/contacts to the solenoid and electrical wires/contacts from solenoid to distributor.
I checked and made a slight adjustment to the contact gap in the distributor. Distributor cap centre carbon nib and side contacts of cap all look new, rotor arm gave a light clean.
Removed condenser and cleaned mating face to distributor.
Spark plugs removed and gaps checked, condition good.
HT lead and sparks plug leads all cleaned and tight fit.
Fuel pump head removed filter clean but removed and blew through with an air can to make sure.
Air box cover removed and wiped clean.
Breather hose from engine to air box removed and cleaned.
Took it for a test drive and got 70mph with no problems
But today took her out for a quick spin and its juddering again.
If you have any thoughts I would appreciate them. I have read the forum on similar problems and am perhaps thinking of removing the carburettor (is this an easy job will I need new seals and where will I get them from) or should I just replace the condenser on the distributor first?
Any help much appreciated, Thanks [-/
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Hi,
You are right in the process you have followed and yes it is difficult to test the condenser and as it is a servicable item i would first change this with the points.
While your in the distributor check that the centrifugal wieghts are not sticking and move into advance and back again freely as this can give the symton you speak off. It is easy to blame the carb but it is an expensive part to replace, first is the fuel pump in good order and delievering enough fuel. maybe fuel lines/filter (if fitted are partically blocking)? Dont forget the small filter in the top of the carb and gauze filter in the pump.
Good luck :- :-
Steve
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Hi,
You are right in the process you have followed and yes it is difficult to test the condenser and as it is a servicable item i would first change this with the points.
While your in the distributor check that the centrifugal wieghts are not sticking and move into advance and back again freely as this can give the symton you speak off. It is easy to blame the carb but it is an expensive part to replace, first is the fuel pump in good order and delievering enough fuel. maybe fuel lines/filter (if fitted are partically blocking)? Dont forget the small filter in the top of the carb and gauze filter in the pump.
Good luck :- :-
Steve
Thanks for your reply, didnt know there was a filter in carb better get may Haynes manual back out. How do i confirm if the fuel pump is delivering enough fuel?
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Hi again,
Well you got me there, i would personnally pull the pipe off the carb and with the pipe in a glass jar have someone turm the engine over and whatch how well the feul pumps out< (you have to make this judgement yourself). No smoking while doing this job, but please stop for a cup of tea.
There is a brass bolt in the top off the carb i believe and if you remove this there is a brass filter inside, this can be done in situ.
Steve.
P.S another problem can be an air leak on the induction side, ie between the carb and cyclinder head, but try in order the points you got so far as these are easy non costly checks [-/
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Thanks again [-/
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Squirted some ACF50 in distributor but could not see any thing that looked like centrifugal weights, can you describe what they look like?
Went for a test drive all seemed ok for the first 4miles at 65mph then slowed down to 20mph started going up a slight hill and he jumed around again, on the flat seemed ok then another slight hill jumped again but down hill foot to the floor no problem??? Any ideas, sounds like fuel starvation rather than electrical to me if hills effect it, although on the flat the other day it did it. Still nedd to change condensor & points to see if it is these help :( PS where is a good place to buy a condensor?
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ok,
to check to see if the centrufugal weight are sticking in the distributor remove the distributor cap. when looking from the top view onto the distributor the shaft that the rotor arm sits on should turn 10 to 15 degress in one direction only and when you let go should return to the position you first see it in. some times the springs break and the rotor shaft moves in one direction and does not return again also the top part off the shaft rust inside the spiket it sits on (does this make sense) so no advance takes place or it sticks and intermitten advance happens like your symton.
Just another thought while i drink my tea, you may be getting one off the following being intermitten:-
1, are you getting a vacum in you petrol tank, try removing your filler cap and see if this rectifies the problem.
2, is the exhaust got large flakes of rust or silencer padding adrift and blocking the tail pipe causing poor performance, this would be noted with a very hot engine working overtime.
3, maybe something floating in the petrol tank moving about and particially blocking the outlet fuel pipe
but get that condenser changed as this can give all types of symtons when breaking down your local motor shop should have these sometimes in stock
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I will try turning it to see if it springs back. Thanks [-/
When i picked the car up i know it was 30ºC outside and probably the worst weekend to pick up a car so far away but 8 miles into journey i did notice the hand brake was extremley hot! Hansnt been hot since though on my short journeys.
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Yer seems to spring back [-/
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have a check that the ht leads have no damage to them if they are the silicon type make sure they have no cuts or cracks in the leads and also make sure that the end fitments are in good order and that the distributor and coil have good connections the inner connection in the coil can come loose. start your car up and remove one ht lead and offer it up to the body work (i normally use the engine bay lip near the lock catch, not that it matters..) check to see if there is a good spark and then watch as you raise the regime of the engine looking for any missing or erratic spark patterns. do this on both leads, it may show up a dodgy lead or highlight that the problem is electrical. if this is fine then i would run the car and check to see that it has a steady supply of fuel with no air in the feed, have a look at the carb and have a look to see if you can see any fuel collecting in the bakerlite tray or that there is any signs of loose components as many of the problems on a 126 are often a simple adjustment or retighten. i must say that it sounds like it is the fuel pump that may be giving up as you were getting it on inclines and as it gets more tired will do the same on the flat it may not be the diaphram that is not working properly but the face where the rod pushes onto as this gets worn along with the push rod try measuring the rod travel it may be that you need to remove a shim to allow more travel of the push rod. another possibility is the coil is knackered is it getting hot?
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Cheers for the reply, i will try the spark lead check and see if the coil is getting hot too, as soon as i get time to do it as the days just roll into one an another and before i know it another week has gone by. ;)
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I'd suspect condenser or coil.
I had a condenser problem, she ran fine at idle and low revs but when I revved it it farted and spluttered and wouldnt pick-up properly.
Then when I upgraded to the 123 ignition, it ran fine for weeks, then started to not want to idle.
Took a long time to figure out and ended-up with the cleanest carb on the planet! But replaced the coil and it all went away :oops:
If the cutting-out is a complete loss of power I'd suspect fuel but intermittent sounds electrical :oops:
I've had all of the above...and more :oops:
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Took a long time to figure out and ended-up with the cleanest carb on the planet! But replaced the coil and it all went away :oops:
LOL how much and where is a good supplier for a coil? Cheers
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I've used e bay alot, chet at ricambi fiat500 seems to have alot of bits and Toto is a flamboyant Italian who can offer advice over the phone, he's worked on these engines for ages.
He's seen my car :oops: and although he says it sounds sweet, he disagrees with my obsession to get more power out of it :P if I can...
Is yours an air cooled?
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Hi again went for a drive today as i haven't been out in her for a while and the night pixies havent fixed my car as it sometimes still jumps around at various speeds. I noticed when i touched the contacts of the top of the coil when the engine is on, i get a mild zap though my fingers! Also when i touch the bodywork with my left finger then the coil terminal with the black wire i also get a mild tingling zap, is this normal? If you re feeling brave could someone confirm this is normal, before i go and buy a new coil. Much appreciated [-/
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Hi Worm,
Giving yourself electric shocks maybe considered not normal :oops:
lol :P :P :P
Ignition coils produce high voltages 5000-15000v is common, so yes this is what you are feeling.
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LOL Thank you, im just being a spanner then :P Going to order the condenser on the coil as recommend first and see if that resolves it.
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Is it normal to have a condenser attached to the coil as well as the condenser on the side of the distrubitor??
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Fitted new condenser today, not made any difference it still jumps around :( :(. I did notice when i turned my ignition off that the engine ran for a couple of seconds until it stopped, i guess this is a slight timing issue maybe??? but it has only done this twice now. Do people think the coil is then next to replace or should i take the fuel pump off first, if i do take pump off what should i find wrong with it, will it be obvious?. thanks for any advice on this :D
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try changing plugs. The engine running-on like that sounds like the plugs are so hot they carry-on igniting the fuel once the engine is switched-off.
Jumping and missfiring could be points, but then could also be fuel as when they run lean they tend to missfire.
Jumping when? Under load I presume? sounds like a careful carb clean, replace fuel filter points and plugs is in order.
I find coils either work or not.
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I was going to comment that it must sound like my mother-in-law... :oops:
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Thanks for your reply, yes its under load when it jumps so if i back off the accelerator and re apply less throttle it seems to settle down and temporally recover. I will probably remove the fuel pump have a look then if that looks ok i will take the carb off. I ve checked the timing with a strobe light, this was a little before the 10 degree advance mark, so i have move dizzy so it is more or less bang on but this made no difference when i took it for a test drive. ;)
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Does this coil look correct, as in the Haynes Manual there is no small object to the right which looks like a condenser for the coil, help does anyone know if this should be on it and what will happen if i remove it? :D
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I think this is the condenser, usually fitted on the side of the distributor. Some people fit them at the coil end to keep them away from the heat of the engine as the newer ones tend to fail on a regular basis.
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I think this is the condenser, usually fitted on the side of the distributor. Some people fit them at the coil end to keep them away from the heat of the engine as the newer ones tend to fail on a regular basis.
Thats very odd as the dizzy has a condenser already, is this right to have 2 condensers, maybe this is the problem, but i dont want to remove it from the coil and run the car to find out i have caused more problems/damage. Also the coil condenser if that is what it is is connected to the other terminal! The condenser from the dizzy is attached to the black wire on the left of the coil (-) negative, does this seem normal to have this set up of 2 condensers one on the (+) and the other on the (-). Any suggestions?? :undecided2:
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The one the coil is probably a radio suppressor. have you replaced the condenser on the distributor ???
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The one the coil is probably a radio suppressor. have you replaced the condenser on the distributor ???
Yes i replaced the condenser on the dizzy today, it was slightly different to the old one in the fact that it had a prong electrical end rather than a larger round spade connector like the old one and i had to fit it upside down. What does a radio suppressor do?
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Try disconnecting the one one the coil its not needed if your using good quality suppressed plug leads, see if that makes a difference, the radio suppressors were usually fitted if copper cord plug leads were used, they stop the ticking interference usually on MW/LW Radio's They were also fitted to the dynamos [-/
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Removed and striped fuel pump all seems ok. Fuel pump push rod could not remove without removing the alternator so didn't but it had a 3mm of movement under hand crank and protruded about 1.5mm out from spacer as the Haynes suggests, tested pump via glass jar and fuel is pumping out nicely. Removed carb and took top cover off, all looks spotless and filters were clean still, blew with can of air all the jets and brass things that i could see, awaiting replacement gaskets to refit carb.
Noticed on ebay that there appears to be 2 different types of condenser for the 126 depending whether a Marelli or Zelmot dizzy is fitted! The condenser i was sent was a fit all Fiat 500/126 so maybe this is still the problem if it is not a fit all 126 condenser at all. I assume from reading the Haynes manual that i have the Zelmot dizzy as the car is 1983 and the Haynes states that the Marelli was used 1985 onwards but doesnt give a name for pre 1985 dizzy i have picked this info up else where, if someone could confirm dizzy info dates manufacturer that would be of reassurance as i am considering ordering a different condenser as stated in a previous post the condenser didn't fit like the old one anyway. ;)
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I assume from reading the Haynes manual that i have the Zelmot dizzy as the car is 1983 and the Haynes states that the Marelli was used 1985 onwards but doesnt give a name for pre 1985 dizzy i have picked this info up else where, if someone could confirm dizzy info dates manufacturer that would be of reassurance as i am considering ordering a different condenser as stated in a previous post the condenser didn't fit like the old one anyway. ;)
Having spoken to some one helpful on ebay selling the condenser and re read the description in the Haynes the 1985 onwards is a 'Marelli electronic rotorless' and pre 1983 is still a Marelli though.
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Having spoken to some one helpful on ebay selling the condenser and re read the description in the Haynes the 1985 onwards is a 'Marelli electronic rotorless' and pre 1983 is still a Marelli though.
First time i have heard of that one </* by the look of your coil and year you should have the std marelli dizzy. electronic ignition was never fitted to 126's imported into GB.
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A little more info.
If your dizzy has the plug leads coming out of the top with the HT lead in the centre it should be a Marelli S152A
The other two distributors that are used on the later models are the Zelmot 3459A and the Marelli S314A these have no rotor arm and just a flat top, Both these use the waste spark coil with both plug leads coming from the coil to the spark plugs.
All 3 distributors use a .25 mfd condenser.
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Thanks Pete, it looks like the Marelli S152A is fitted to mine then.
How can you check that the condenser supplied is doing .25 mfd what ever .25 mfd means. Prehaps you could explain to an unlearned one [-/
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You may find this link informative it explains what each component does in the ignition circuit [-/
http://autorepair.about.com/cs/generalinfo/a/aa052502a.htm
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Thanks Pete, a good read.
Yesterday i put the carb back on and no surprise that the car still jumps as everything looked ok on the fuel pump and carb. I removed the coil after the test drive, as this was my next port of call and found it was too hot to handle but to be fair everything in the engine bay is hot to touch in comparison. Anyway i remembered someone had mentioned the insides of the coil may be loose, so i was going to see if i could strip it down and take a look. What i did notice is that when i shaked the coil there sounded like there was liquid in it. I removed the centre screw where the HT lead connects and a small amount of this fluid (10ml) came out when tipped upside down. Is this normal :o The coil has Zelmot written on it too. And that was as far as it came to bits. :undecided2:
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The coils normally have oil in them. Perhaps yours is knackered.
If you are down my way I have one you can try
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Does anyone know what the resistance values for the primary & secondary windings in the coil are for the Zelmot as the Haynes only state the Marelli and Martinetti coils!! not a Zelmot one. Then i can check to see if my coil is indeed duff :undecided2: (PS thanks for your kind offer Darrell)
Think I've figured it out as it has 'BE 200 B' also stamped on the coil top too so i assume its that same as the haynes manual as it calls it Marelli BE 200 B in which case my primary coil reading was 3.6/3.7 Ohms and should be 3.1/3.4 at 20 degrees Celsius and the secondary winding was 7460 Ohms which fell within the 6750/8250 Ohm range as sated in the Haynes. I bench tested the coil as per the link below. So i will order a new coil and post up the results :oops:
http://autorepair.about.com/od/troubleshooting/ss/coil-test-ohm.htm
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:cry2: put new coil on today must admit i put the orange and black on same terminal and it would not start and the wires were well hot and starting to smell then looked at the pic i took of the coil earlier :yikes: and wired it up correctly, hope i havent buggered the new one >:(, it still jumped around when driving. It seems to do it on the flat under load just before changing up a gear and up slight hills under load. Coasting at 1/4 throttle no problems though. I took the fuel pump line off again and watched the flow of fuel from the fuel pump, there is a good strong flow but does have some air bubbles in it which i assume is normal for a vintage set up as the carb takes what fuel it wants and sends the rest back to the tank so the bubbles shouldn't make too much of an impact? Apart from changing the spark plugs and leads which i dont think will help im at a loss, Any ideas anyone, as i want a reliable car to drive. </7
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I have air bubbles originating on the petrol tank side of the fuel pump indicating air is being drawn in at the tank, this is causing problems under full throttle and trying to maintain high speeds for a long periods >:( >:( >:(. Runs OK at low speed but can get jumpy when the throttle is pushed down, need to back off to keep it going then runs ok untill more throttle is required. Air should not be entering the system. I am on the look out for a new or good feed/return/float to resolve the problem. Can you see bubbles in the pipe between the tank and pump? if so use a petrol can with a tube fitted onto the inlet side of the pump start it up and see if you still get the air bubbles.
Ralph
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I have air bubbles originating on the petrol tank side of the fuel pump indicating air is being drawn in at the tank, this is causing problems under full throttle and trying to maintain high speeds for a long periods >:( >:( >:(. Runs OK at low speed but can get jumpy when the throttle is pushed down, need to back off to keep it going then runs ok untill more throttle is required. Air should not be entering the system. I am on the look out for a new or good feed/return/float to resolve the problem. Can you see bubbles in the pipe between the tank and pump? if so use a petrol can with a tube fitted onto the inlet side of the pump start it up and see if you still get the air bubbles.
Ralph
Thanks for your reply ;D. Sounds like we have the same problem. My fuel tubes are not transparent enough to see if bubbles are originating from tank side of fuel pump. I guess i can rig up a length of clear tube between the two if i can find suitable connectors. Assuming the bubbles are being generated the tank side before they enter the fuel pump, how can you eradicate them. Also what do you mean by good feed/return/float is this what is in side the fuel tank which draws the fuel in?
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Strange.. i tested with a clear tube either side of fuel pump and there were no bubbles at all. So upon reassembling on the inlet to the fuel pump i used a different clip just incase is was drawing in air previously. Test drove it but still jumps. oh bother will i ever get it fixed as i am running out of ideas :( :( :( I wonder if adding an additive to the fuel whether that will help, probably not but clutching at straws time. HELPPPPPP!
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It's the fuel/petrol tank sender, can get 500's ok but they don't have the fuel return.
Ralph
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I see.
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Just to bring this thread to a conclusion, I bought Worm's 126 last month - it had been standing outside since the autumn but fired up first time and being the brave/idiotic soul that I am, I drove it the 20 or so miles home during the rush hour on a Friday evening and basically it wouldn't go much above 30 or under any sort of engine load without stuttering/losing power until I backed off the gas and started again.
There didn't seem to be any crap in the fuel lines, points and condensor were new and set up right and the petrol pump seemed OK but it was obviously fuel starvation - anyway, that just left the carb and I suspected a dodgy float. So, I got a reconditioned carb from Poland off eBay (highly recommended - £50 and it's like new), fitted it this weekend and the car is now as sweet as a nut! I'll post a proper update once I've got some other jobs done.
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I'm sure worm will be really pleased for you after pulling most of his hair out for months bless him!! :P. :D.
Interesting thread guys, who was your eBay seller midvillesb?..glad you got it sorted, what year is it? enjoy it!
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Well Done, that has made my day that at last the mystery is solved :)