Club126UK
Fiat 126 Chat => Fiat 126 Chat => Topic started by: Amateb8 on January 18, 2010, 11:00:26 PM
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Has anyone tried synthetic engine oil on their 126? Synthetic oil is more expensive but it is supposed to contain extra anti-wear protection and good for old engines. But synthetic oils are mostly used for high performance vehicles where a thicker oil is needed.
Some years ago, shops and petrol stations used to sell oil additives as well such as STP which is available on ebay..
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i thought synthetic oils were thinner? i always use Halfords classic oil 20w 50 as it doesnt have chemicals that damamge the oil seals. Its quite thick, hels reduce leaks!! :P
http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_166289_langId_-1_categoryId_165581
i think in america synthetic oils are used alot more, very expensive over here.
I think all the oil additives come in teh oil now, so no need for additives. i may be wrong.
Regards
Chris
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I use this one, same spec as manual states
http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_181499_langId_-1_categoryId_165581
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yer i think thats good stuff, i think what matters the most is changing the oil often!!
At one point when i didnt have much i was using cheap wilkos oil from wilkinsons, was a multigrade oil for only a few pounds, it was so cheap i was changing it every week!
Chris
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For the last 3 years i have been using Mobil 1 20w-50w which is a fully synthetic motor oil as used by rally and race teams.
I decided to use this oil because I have used it in 2 of my other vehicles and it offers unique protection properties, 126 engine do get very hot and synthetic oil does not breakdown like some mineral oils, it also transfers the heat better than conventional oils, It is expensive but it does the job.
More info here
http://www.mobil.com/Australia-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil1_Racing_4T.asp
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Chris is right synthetic oils are thinner and designed for modern engines that have much finer tolerances. Low oil pressure is a common symptem of filling older engines with synthetic oils with the possibility of lack of oil flow to the top of the engine. Wether this is the case with the 126 engine I wouldn't know but 126 engines were not designed for synthetic oils and synthetic oils were not designed with the intention of protecting older classic engines?????
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Many thanks everyone. I will probably opt for a thicker oil on my next oil change. Is Mobil 1 20W-50W, thicker oil? What does the numbers mean .e.g. the higher the number, the thicker it is? My next question is, I use my 126 sparingly, probably 1k a year max, mostly driven in the summer or when it is dry. My last oil change was in July 2007 (used normal non-synthetic oil). Since that time, the car did just under 900 miles. On visual inspection, the oil is still like new (very clear). Seems like an odd question to ask but does the engine oil deteriorate? Do I still need to change oil as often even if the vehicle is used occassionally? Also, I probably need a thicker oil to reduce wear on the engine particularly when it does not get used very often.
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A 20/50w Motor oil has the same viscosity whether it be a mineral or synthetic base. its just personal choice.
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You guys have just reminded me to change my oil...can't remember when I last did it...6 months ago maybe?... :oops:
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Engine oils do degrade a little over time regardless of use/mileage, i doubt yours has by much (if at all) but prob still worth changing it, certainly no harm...
Doing my oil change on the weekend too hopefully, I use Castrol Classic or Morris's Classic 20/50. personally I wouldnt use synthetics either because of all the additive chemicals, detergents etc not suiting the higher operating temperature or oil flow of the aircooled engine, not so sure on the BIS though...
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:) My car has the inbuilt automatic progressive oil management system [-/
It keeps burning oil & leaking it & I keep chucking more in :oops:
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I don't like synthetic oils.
I had a Ducati which specified Synthetis oil which was fine for it, but then I thought I'd just buy some for the old Yamaha xs11 and it started weeping oil from all sorts of gaskets and casings, changed it back to normal oil and all the leaks stopped.
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All the new oils meet the requirements of the old oils and have more additives to meet the requirements of the new engines, so , well it's up to you to choose what sort of oil you want to put in your engine but i reckon it's all the same (quality of course isn't.) Many of you use 20w 50 , doesn't that make winter starting a bit more difficult? I've always used Agip 15w 40 which i think is more of a compromise.... Or does anyone use Valvoline Max Life because that helps against seal aging and has conditioners and other additives for older engines?
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i forgot how many engine oil manufacturers there were!
Haynes manual recommends Duckhams oil, im not sure if duckhams is really around these days.
Pete youre right on mobil oil, a mechanic friend swears by mobil always has done.
change your oil often thats the key.
Chris
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1. Don't use the really cheap 20w/50 oil. It's cleaned and recycled in China. I wouldn't put in my mower, let alone a car!
2. I know it's obvious but regular oils changes are the key to long engine life.
3. 20w/50 is the wrong grade for our cars - it's too thick. I know these little engines run hot but I just don't like it!
20/50 is best for use in 'A' series type engines where the engine oil does the gearbox as well.
4. If you want a multigrade use a 15w/40 such as good old castrol GTX, and dont worry about the semi synthetic magnatec version either. GTX will take you from -15deg to 35deg. More than good enough for the UK.
The Haynes manual for the 126 specifies GTX........but.......................
5. Consider monograde oil. I use Morris SAE30 monograde and I've never had an oil related issue in 20 years. It's perfect for air cooled cars and has no yucky chemicals that our engines dont require. I used to put it in my Beetles and VW campers and everyone I know also does. Some of the engines are highly tuned as well and it copes no problem. The Fiat 126 owner handbook also specifies SAE30 as an option.
That's it, just thought I'd add my opinion.... if it helps! I'm loving that Orange FSM by the way, you won't lose that in a car park.
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my oil is classic and green and i love it ...in a proper metal can too.. :)
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my oil is classic and green and i love it ...in a proper metal can too.. :)
That stuff smells so good too! Reason enough for me!
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Sounds like olive oil to me. :D
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Sounds like olive oil to me. :D
That will tick all the right boxes too. [-/
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I am not a specialist but from as far as I remember all "old polish spec" mechanics always told me: DO-NOT-PU-ANY-SYNTHETIC-OIL-IN-MALUCH! :)
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I used to run on Castrol RS 10W-60 which is fully synthetic. It was the only oil (from what I've tried) that kept my engine going for longer. Most of group-a 126's in Rally-Cross where running on this stuff.
My view is that if you've just put together an engine using new gaskets and cleaned the old parts from old oil (or just using new parts) then fully synthetic is the right choise. But if your engine is say 50k miles old just stick to what you used before - switching to synthetic will only cause leaks.
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ive just switched to italian bertolli olive oil 20w-50, leaks like mad but makes a great deep fat fryer for doughnuts! :P
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I spoke to the Proietti guys regarding synthetic oils. Interestingly, they swear by it and use it on the 500s and 126s. Everyone has a different view on synthetic versus normal engine oils. We are no where near coming to a consensus on which oil is best. I think the bottomline is, as Pete126 states, it is a matter of personal choice. Having said that, we all seem to agree that one should avoid using cheap engine oils and change oil frequently to ensure engine longevity.
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The winter low temperature were nearly two months, from -15 to -27 degrees celsius. So I put a semi-synthetic oil, API SL / CF 5W40 grade. I have no problem after that.
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my oil is classic and green and i love it ...in a proper metal can too.. :)
sorry to burst your bubble is because its cheap stuff recycled in china, all green oil is bad, comma classic 20/50 is green, same as halfords rubbish 20/50
best 20/50 oils are morris, miller or unipart, also castrol 20/50 (if u can find it)
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very good choice oils -specially made to meet VW 505.01 standard and the maximum API SL !
http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-60138-gulf-tec-plus-5w-40-semi-synthetic-engine-oil-diesel-vw-pd-engines.aspx
http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-60252-millers-oils-xfe-pd-5w-40-semi-synthetic-engine-oil.aspx
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I have started to use 10W-60 fully synth after reading that the Abarth specialists recommend it for the air cooled engines partly for the heat dissipation that Pete mentioned but also for it's robustness at the higher temperatures the air cooled engines run at . Expensive especialy if you buy it by the litre but look out for special offers at Halfords on 4 or 5 litre cans ;)
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Ive been using mobil1 10w60 in mine, leaks just the same as the non synthetic... :)
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I know in VW land they have a special 'aircooled' oil called beetle juice which is thinner than usual. With A/C engines relying on the oil for cooling, thick oil doesnt tend to do them much good as they cant circulate as freely to cool down. I know the 126 has its cylinders going up and down rather than a slightly tilted boxer as in a VW but it seems to make sense to avoid thick oils. Personally i think if you have an oil leak you should be sorting it rather than trying to block it with a thicker oil!
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burst my bubble? its oil and my car thus my choice and my view just like your choice and your view so put what you wish in your car if its cheap and Chinese then so be it i dont care where it comes from it could even be french for all i care. by the way have you any scientific proof of your quotes or are you just a lubricant anorak? ;)
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im a mechanic, i just get to know what is good oil and what is recycled, its not that bad but will just burn, degrade and blacken quicker than normal oil, the thing that annoys me with it is i now buy unipart 20/50 for £15 for 5 liters and comma classic 20/50 is about £18 now but there blue bottled comma motorway 20/50 is £12 and pretty much same recycled green oil, except one had a posh tin with graphics of a mini on it :P
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i am gutted i had you for a science boffin in a millets kagoul!! turns out your a spanner monkey!! i am brainwashed by the magic adverts in classic car magazines and thus cannot turn away from the dark side, also may i add i love a good chinese takeaway and love old re runs of monkey so i cant knock the hoards of communist chinese that will one day rule us all.... also "synth oil" sounds to much like an old kraftwerk album...
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I know in VW land they have a special 'aircooled' oil called beetle juice which is thinner than usual. With A/C engines relying on the oil for cooling, thick oil doesnt tend to do them much good as they cant circulate as freely to cool down. I know the 126 has its cylinders going up and down rather than a slightly tilted boxer as in a VW but it seems to make sense to avoid thick oils. Personally i think if you have an oil leak you should be sorting it rather than trying to block it with a thicker oil!
..functions other than lubricating oil is cooled engine. too thick oil circulates more slowly and leads to overheating of the engine. semi-synthetic and synthetic oils are thinner but stronger oil film, much more resistant to overheating ....
Today ... there are much better seals (gray)
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I've just read this thread and I am more confused. I'm just going to get a 20W50 brand name like Mobil. If there is no leaks then that's the one for me. I'm going to also try the NGK Iridium plugs too.
I'm delighted that I bought an oil vacuum pump. It removes the engine oil through the dipstick. It will also work on the gearbox too.
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Having assembled a near enough new engine, I was researching breaking-in oils and assembly lubricants to use and came across these threads on general oil usage.
Viscosity
According to the 3 different aircooled owners manuals, your oil should be based on temperature.
- If the temperature is no less than -15 and no higher than 35, then it says to use 10w30
- If the temperature is no less than 0 and goes above 35, then it says to use 20w40
- The Personal 4 manual says to use 15w40.
Given the UK climate, unless you never use you car when it's near freezing outside, I'd question is it wise to use anything higher than 15w40 in an aircooled?
According to the BIS owner manual it says we should use 15w40.
In fact it even says we can use semi synthetic or mineral 15w40, which leads me to my next topic.
Synthetic vs Mineral
The aircooleds were designed with mineral oil in mind, the BIS can take either.
There seems to be a misconception about synthetic oils being thinner, but that's not the whole picture. A 10w40 mineral oil has the same thickness as a 10w40 synthetic oil, if by thickness we're talking viscosity. The difference is, synthetic oils can withstand more pressure before breaking down. For example, when a tappet is pressed up against the camshaft, both oils provide the same thickness between the surfaces. But hypothetically, if that tappet were pressed harder and harder against the camshaft, the mineral oil would break first. Now because many newer engines have greater pressure against various surfaces inside them, they use synthetic oils, thus synthetic gets the reputation of being thinner.
I guess the main point of debate in synthetic vs mineral is the leak factor. There are hundreds of internet forum pages and articles arguing about the legitimacy of this. When researching, I reasoned that if the true answer were obvious or easily proven then we wouldn't even see hundreds of debates on this. Ultimately I seems to comes down to the condition of your engine, more specifically the condition of your oil seals. The older more worn they are, the more likely they are to leak if you use synthetic.
126 oil seals are easy to come by and cheap, what aren't easy to come by (for BIS owners at least) nor cheap, are camshafts and other chunks of the engine... leading to my final section: zddp.
Zinc dithiophosphate
ZDDP for short, is an anti-wear oil additive that contains roughly equal amounts of zinc and phosphorus and is particularly critical for the correct lubrication of flat-tappet camshafts. The amount of ZDDP has decreased over time with the broad adoption of roller-tappet cams and the negative impact ZDDP has on catalytic converters and the environment.
Most oils have an API approval, with the letter after the S signifying the classification.
- In 1980, the oil standard API SF specified a minimum of 1200 PPM and maximum of 1500 PPM
- API SG reduced the minimum to 1000 PPM and the maximum to 1200 PPM
- API SJ reduced the maximum to 1000 PPM, I can't seem to find a minimum being specified
- By 2004, API SM was introduced and the minimum lowered to 600 PPM, and a maximum of 800 PPM
This isn't a problem for engines as time has gone by, because newer and newer engines become more efficient and better designed against wear. But for old engine with basic flat tappet arrangements, a design that is more prone to wear than a roller tappet, it is a looming problem.
The BIS owner manual specifies API SG (SF if you use mineral), which corresponds to the oil standard at the time of it's introduction. The Aircooled owner manuals all specify API SE, which was the standard introduced in 1972.
When I was looking up ZDDP, it seems that not longer after API SM was introduced, a wave of flat-tappet camshaft failures were sprouting up. It occurred more in engines where the spring pressure was greater but consensus on forums I've been looking at suggests that once we go below 1000 PPM, cam failures start cropping up. This puts the last "safe" API as SJ... but even then there's no lower limit!
For BIS owners, this may even be a non-issue since the camshaft and tappets are immersed in oil, so long as the oil level is kept topped up:
(https://image.ibb.co/nH1rH5/oilzddp.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
However for aircooled owners, where the camshaft is above the oil and the engine was designed back when API was down at SE, perhaps it's worth adding some zddp additive, or looking for a classic oil that is SE/SF grade.
Big long article about zddp levels and history of oil etc. (http://www.mossmotors.com/graphics/products/PDF/Oil%20for%20Vintage%20Cars.pdf)
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HOLY THREAD REVIVAL BATMAN :P i've read this thread a few times now and it's very interesting what views people have. I'm no oil expert but I do agree with someone's comment on regular oil changes are the key to a reliable engine. I've been using castrol gtx now for a number of years (15w/40) and it gets done every year regardless of mileage as I believe you can never do too many oil changes on your car.
I'm not sure if castrol gtx is synthetic or not (I suspect it is) but I've just come to the end of a 5 litre can of it and have took the plunge and bought 5 litres of shell helix as it was cheap (it was bought in error apparently)
I will say though imo if an engine is leaking oil then I'm not sure it's the oil spec that's doing it :$
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I've been using Castrol GTX 15w40 too, which is part-synthetic. In theory it's the perfect oil for an ol' BIS engine as it's designed to clear and protect against sludge (at least, as much as is possible with just oil!) But it's API SL, so at best it has 1000 PPM, but it could have less. Again, in a BIS engine this may be a non-issue.
I figured changing my oil every 3 months would be good shout.
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found a product: Mannol Universal.
It's a 15W40 mineral oil with API SG, perfect specification/zddp for 126 engines. Plenty of sellers on eBay, but can be bought from the manufacturer on Amazon for £15 for 5L :)
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I thought I'd put away invoices for my Fiat 126. I noticed Proeitti used 10w40 semi-synthetic oil. I previously used Mobil Super 1000 15w40 semi-synthetic oil. The consensus on this thread is 15w40. I was thinking of making an oil change in about 6 months time, and replace it with what I previously used - 15w40. Is a 10w40 thinner. Should I do an oil change sooner?
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10w40 is a thinner oil on start up meaning it flows slightly quicker than the correct 15w40 oil. A faster flowing oil doesn't necessarily mean that it's good for the engine. Thinner oil in an engine designed to run on thicker oil means a lower oil pressure and noisier components like the tappets. 10w is only slightly thinner so it's unlikely to cause any damage to a BIS engine and will lubricate all the bits perfectly well enough but personally for the price of a good quality 15w40 oil - less than £20 for 5 litres - you might as well stick to spec and do an oil change and feel good about yourself while doing it :D incidentally in my personal opinion I use mineral oil as my preference.
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Yes, the engine sounds like a VW Polo. Engine noise is hard to describe. It makes a whirly noise when revved. You are right. The tappets are noisier than usual.
What is the difference between using the normal oil and mineral oil?
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Normal oil (the old type oil) is mineral oil, the newer oils are either synthetic or part synthetic.
In the past the problem with synthetic or part synthetic oils was that they tended to have more oil leaks with old design engines. Not sure if this is still true?