Club126UK
Fiat 126 Chat => Tuning & Customising 126 Models => Topic started by: Tomasz on September 04, 2007, 01:31:29 PM
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Ok so i have my Panda 30 head (with the Solex carb). I cant afford to get a fast road cam at the moment so are there any other improvements i can make before fitting it? I know the mods i have to make to the tin work, the carb mount and the studs. Would polishing the ports be worth it, i think i have most the tools for it. I have also got a gasket set although i am not sure what half of the things are for but i am sure i can work it out.
cheers guys.
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Also do you think its worth having the engine balenced considering i use it quite a lot and plan do do some long journeys this year (poland and back!)
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its a good idea to get the engine balanced but first you must strip it completely and what sort of money are you going to shell out for that to be done? dont forget you will need to replace bearings , seals , rings etc. if not it will be a false ecconomy . and there you were saying you had no dosh for a new cam. :D
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im thinking maybe the cam should wait. I dont actually have money for either at the moment! I think i should maybe put the engine balence first if i can afford it before i start racking up the miles this year.
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I know a guy selling a fast cam, cheap :-)
PM me I will put you in touch.
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ok balancing is too much of a hastle! I will see how much this cam is. I have been using my dremel to smooth out the ports of the head. I dont want to remove much material in case i break something!
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Hi Tomasz,
If you still didn't put the head back on to the engine I might have a few suggestions:
1. Do not polish the inlet port. Leave some scratches on the surface (sand paper 120 should be fine) - if the inlet is polished the petrol has less chance to evaporate and the air/fuel mixture will not be homogenous -> lower efficiency of combustion.
2. Take valves and take material of them to make them more flat to get sth of this shape: http://www.fiat-furious.pl/html/artykuly/krowa/krowa016.jpg
At the botom of this topic there is a good photo:
http://www.streetracing.pl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=44059
3. I don't know what compression ratio panda 30 had but with standard 650E head you can easily skim the head by 1-1.5mm and not have problems with pinging
4. You should also round the edge of the combustion chamber with r=~1-2mm (straight lined edge going through combustion chamber) - this will reduce the chance of pinging.
5. Work on the exhaust ports so they would fit the exhauts manifolds correctly - usually there is a big step there.
If you will use fast cam you can go towards much higher compression but then reliability will go down.
Regarding balancing - personally I think it makes sense when you're building a pretty powerful engine or you have your engine stripped already - otherwise wait till you really have to strip it down and then do the balancing.
What sort of exhaust have you got at the moment?
If you're looking for a cam I know a person that makes fast cams in Poland so if interested i can give you the contact.
ps. there is quite a lot of material you can take off the ports - have a look here:
http://www.126fan.pl/www/glowica.htm
Cheers
Mali
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Wow, thanks that’s really useful.
I have a sport exhaust on at the moment (abarth monza replica) and I would be interested in a contact for cams. I am not really sure what type of cam to get though. It cannot be too extreme as I use the car quite a lot.
Cheers,
Tomasz
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Here you have his website:
http://pavlus.republika.pl/
And here you have possible times and lifts:
http://pavlus.republika.pl/sportowe.html
I think its up to you what sort of engine characteristic you would like to have.
I have send you the direct email through PM, although I think you can try the one on the his website as well.
I didn't use his camshafts myself but they have good opinion.
Mali
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Ok chaps, i need more help! I contacted the guy who does the cams and here are the options. Its between the first two i guess, what do you think?
"278- time 278* - cam lift 6,8 mm - valve lift 10,2 mm
284- time 284* - cam lift 6,3 mm - valve lift 9,5 mm
290- time 290* - cam lift 7,4 mm - valve lift 11,1 mm
295- time 295* - cam lift 7,6 mm - valve lift 11,4 mm
305- time 305* - cam lift 7,1 mm - valve lift 10,6 mm
first and second is for fast road, third and fourth is for rally and fifth is for racing.
Normally we transform standard camshafts delivered by customer.
And it cost about 50 Euro. Because you propably writing from abroad, we would find standard camshaft to transform for about 15 Euro.
Gretings Pawel"
I hit my mums new car into a post yesterday so i will be in even more debt soon but oh well!
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for most cars(scort, minis etc) anything above 286deg will be hard to live with in day to day use with no power lower down, lumpy/fast idle and with such small displacement in 126 it will be worse,
you should also choose one to match your other mods, if you have big valves, ported head, matched manifolds and decent carb you may be ok with 290 but pulling away uphill from a start 4 up with a couple of cases of beer in the front will be a revvy experience.
it's your choice, how dedicated do you wanna be.
does he mention why the 284 is a lower lift than the 278
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If I were you, I would go for 290*. It has higher valve lift than the others and I reckon you could still use it on road. You will quickly change your mind if you go for the mild ones.. :twisted:
Would be best to talk to somebody that used these cams.
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The other option is 287, 7,2 it is a second hand one i think from someone else in poland for about £40. He reckons it drives like normal under 4k.
Maybe i should leave the cam, not sure if its practical. Im prob not going to skim the head for now, just some light porting.
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Hi Tomasz, Just thought i ought to point out that its not just the cost of the camshaft that you have to worry about mate. Because of the difference such a long duration cam makes to your engines ability to use the air/fuel mixture in the inlet charge, you will probably find that your carburettor will need to be re-jetted. The jets themselves aren't expensive either, a couple of quid each. The cost tends to sky-rocket however, when you entrust an expert to choose and fit suitable jets. You cant just guess which ones to fit, because all of them will work to a degree whilst you rev the engine to bits, sat there on your drive. When the engine is under load, ie: accelerating uphill in fourth gear for 30 seconds or so, it will need larger quantities of fuel than your small jets, and the short burst your accelerator pump can give. This is why people use rolling road tuning centres, with experts at hand to do back to back testing of jet sizes and other variables etc, without the car actually going out of the workshop. Be prepared to have to visit such a place at a cost of about £40 an hour to get your engine tuned up right when you've re-built it. 11mm of valve lift sounds a heck of a lot for the aircooled engine, check by hand that your pistons wont batter your valve heads at or near top dead center when you've fitted a cam that wild.Sorry if i droned on a bit there, good luck with your mods mate. :P
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Thanks, you have all been very helpful. Im going to wait until i go to poland in january to work with group2 126 to do any further mods for now. I am just about to start putting the panda head on. i am going to try and get the tin work to fit first as i still need to get either some short push rod tubes or more likely get some 500 ones with the correct seals and get them to fit.
Wish me luck!
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Good luck! :smt023
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to work with group2 !!!!!!
You lucky plucker!!
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Yeah i know! Hopefully my car will be in fine health then so i can drive there (which will be fun in January!)
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Can I just ask how on earth did you manage to get to work with group2 people? Do you know what exactly you will be doing there?
Please ask what sort of camshafts do they use. :smt112
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hehe i talked to them at race retro earlier in the year and they said i could work with them. I am currently on a placement year for my course (which is product design so a bit irrelivant). I am going to stay with one of the engineers i think. I need to email them to check that i can still come.
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Why are you looking for tuning parts here when in a few months you will be working surrounded by goodies at Polish prices?
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thats what i figured. After this head is on i will do nothing else until then.
Progress on the head:
Cut push rod tubes and made sleeves with washer and seal to keep them oil tight.
Almost made half of tin work fit by cutting a little off the head and some off the tin.
Still working on other side to get it to fit, its going to involve some welding.
I have ordered the correct die for the studs.
Will post pics of finished job when its done, which i hope will be the end of next week.
One more question - is there any other avantages of an aluminium rocker cover other than looking cool?
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Lighter, but then the steel one is not exactly heavy. But they do really look nice. A new one steel one is about £3.50 in Poland
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in my experience the alloy ones are heavier............thick castings that need trimming before they clear valves etc,ive gone to steel,i reckon it disapates heat better.......and the oil filler caps fit better on the original too.
spend your money on a bigger finned sump istead,or a rev counter.two critical items
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alloy ones seem to be more prone to leaking as well
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will def be getting an alu sump next, i already have the temp sensor to fit to it. Do most of them come with a hole for the temp sensor or do you usually have to drill it yourself? Also has anyone got one of those rev counters from the polish company linked on the blitz site, they are pretty cheap and have fitting instructions apparently although i dont know if instructions will be in english.
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Wooo my abarth sump arrived for which i have a temperature sender. That comes later though.
All i have left panda wise is fitting the carb. I was wondering what kind of filter i should fit. I have cut off the filter housing because i want a performance filter but i havnt yet found a peice of tube to fit the top of the carb to bend it round to a cone style filter so i am thinking of a flat round style filter straight on top of the carb. I like the square ones sold through the 500 tuning companies but they are a bit pricey. The trouble is that there is not much space as the carb sits pretty high already.
Does anyone know if the weber carb is the same shape as the solex one with the same intake opening?