Club126UK
Fiat 126 Chat => Fiat 126 Mechanical Problem Solving => Topic started by: Bar Vitelli on September 20, 2015, 04:58:37 PM
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The engines in two of my 126s are overheating. :(
We set off on a trip on Saturday and gave up after 3 miles as both cars kept breaking down.
I'm determined to sort it but could do with a definitive list of what to look for.
Here's what I am aware of so far:
1. Check that there is oil in the engine
2. Check that there is sufficient oil pressure
3. Check that the thermostat is working
4. Check that the fuel tank is not rusty as apparently this can cause issues (as per an old post)
What else do I need to check?
Any advice much appreciated...
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PS
Forgot to mention, they are both air cooled.
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Hi Garry.
You can check the thermostat quite easily.
If you look at the right hand side of the engine next to the distributor cap, there will be a little flap on the metal housing which should open and close on a sping connected to the thermostat.
If you are stuck I dont mind coming down one evening and having a look for you, hopefully wont be anything major! :)
Give me a ring if you want me to come down
Chris
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Sounds like double bad luck there BV and most distressing. I would suspect that the cars would not overheat in just 3 miles unless the fan belts were broken or severely loose in which case the ignition warning light would stay on as the generator would not be charging. So you have now got to play the auto detective and work out if it was a fuel or ignition problem. So were the cars previously driven regularly with no problems ? Have they had any recent work carried out?
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Thanks, Chris, I may take you up on that offer, I'm haemorrhaging cash at the moment. These cars are more expensive than a Ferrari! Work is a week from hell next week so I'll give you a buzz next week if I don't get sorted.
Thanks, Rusty, I like the sound of the fan belt thing, it's something I've not checked so worth a look. One of the cars is the one that engine previously blew up on and was 'rebuilt'. It has never run the same and leaks oil badly. The red light is always on so it's in line with what you've described. The other is one that has just been recommissioning after 28 years in a garage. It runs super for a few miles and then cuts out. I don't think it is the thermo stat as I have wedged the flap that Chris describes open with a bit of wood.
Heartbreaking really. We don't get many driving days in this country so it was a shame to miss out.
The rusty red car came to the rescue, though, so we finally reached our destination albeit 3 hours late!
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What kind of oil are you using? Remember that air cooled engines cool themselves with the oil. Also, as others said, check the belt of the alternator o dynamo. In last case check the fan inside the engine if it is OK, i mean not broken or anything.
Cheers
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Ok I think you will have to tackle the cars separately . So the one that had the long lay up is most likely muck in the tank. Symptoms are car starts and drives fine but after a short time will suddenly cut out with fuel starvation. Engine will restart after about 10 mins and the same thing will keep happening because the small particles in the petrol tank clog the fine mesh filter at the end of the pick up tube and held there by the suction from the fuel pump. When the engine stops there is no suction so the particles fall back into the tank and so it goes on. When I had this with my car it would happen after about 12 miles at first then steadily got worse until I could only do 2 or 3 miles. I was pretty certain it was muck in the petrol but as a test before I took the tank out I just drove around my little block accelerating then braking in quick succession to thoroughly stir up the fuel and managed to get the car to cut out after about 100 yards. So then it was tank out :(
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Thanks, Rusty, that makes sense as well. Does that mean I should order a new petrol tank and/or the kit that goe with it like a fuel sender? I'm going to have a crack at tightening the fan belt later this week but my instict (and experience of these cars) says it is probably more than one thing. Would leaking oil (on the other car) be part of the problem as well?
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Do the test first to confirm the problem. Then you have a choice of new tank, removing & flushing out existing tank, treating inside of existing tank and/or removing the fine mesh filter on the pick up tube then catching the muck in an online filter downstream of the fuel pump.
The other car, well normaly a red light on the dash is kind of a warning ;D So if as you say it is always on then that should tell you something :o
You should have two red lights with the ignition on , oil & charging which should go out when the engine is running. So which one stays on ?
Is this the engine you had rebuilt by your "mechanic" ?
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That's the one, Rusty, to be fair he got it running again but my beautiful and favourite blue car has never been the same. The GEN light is almost always on and the oil light comes on and off intermittently even when the oil is full which suggests that the pressure is not right. It leaks a lot as well, on the floor and on the engine. :(
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PS
The oil I use is 15w 40 Castrol. It works fine in my other cars so I assume it is okay.
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BV if I read this right you set off on a trip in the blue car when the ignition light is on all of the time and the oil light some of the time :o
It sounds like the only things that are working properly are the warning lights.
The ignition light is possibly the least serious . If it is on all the time then forget loose fan belt. Has the wiring been altered? Could be worn generator brushes or voltage control problem. Worst case knackered generator.
Ignoring your oil leak problem it might be worth testing the oil pressure switch by substitution. Maybe Chris has a spare you could try :) if the engine is worn and on the way out then the oil light can go out when the engine is cool then come on when it is up to temperature in which case you are looking at a major engine rebuild with new bottom end bearings and maybe a crank regrind. If your oil leak problems are bad then it sounds like the engine needs an overhaul anyway apart from the other problems, good luck :)
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The other is one that has just been recommissioning after 28 years in a garage. It runs super for a few miles and then cuts out.
Also check the float in the carb on this one. Could have a leak.
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Well, an exhausting day and I was just watching. Chris dropped by and helped me out with a few bits but we've still not cracked it. Jobs done are, oil change, rocker cover gasket change, coil was upside down so that's been changed, new thermostat fitted and some other unrelated jobs done. Still not working so the next jobs for another day are new HT leads, little rubber bits that fit over the spark plugs and then the timing. This one is Mrs BVs car so desperate to get it working before the end of the year, parts on order then will try again next weekend.
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If you boys need a hand give me a shout and I can pop down with a van full of tools, meters, timing light, nuts bolts etc
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Spent quite a while going through the engine today.. oil was horrible, so thin it was untrue. Tried all the major things with it, Rocker shaft has a loose piece which is causing an annoying rattle but apart from that couldn't see any major problems...
Going to set ignition timing and get some new leads, it runs fine then randomly just cuts out, seems a lot like fuel starvation when its cutting out but this appears to not be the case. Brand new thormostat today too and still not playing!! Highly annoying!!
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Thanks for all your efforts today, Chris, I think we're getting closer. The things you found were not great but at least they are now sorted so there can only be so many things left to look at! If you have time to take a look, Mark, it would be super, especially if you have tools to help diagnose. With the stuff that's been done so far we are probably in the finishing straight but all help is greatly appreciated. As much as I love these little cars I can fully understand why people gave up back in the day and why we see so many garage finds like this one was.
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You two boys playing out tomorrow ,just realised the time I mean today (Saturday)
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I'll be around if you're free to drop by, just give me a time and I'll make sure I'm in. I've not got all the parts that Chris suggested yet but any help with diagnosis would be greatly appreciated. ;D
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I can play out tomorrow (sunday)
Been busy today sorry.
Chris
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Sorry Gary got called out to a broken down deicer at Liverpool airport and only just got home
Tomorrow helping brother in law fit his kitchen
Birmingham airport all next week
If you are playing out next Saturday I should be free
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No problem, Mark, Chris is popping over again tomorrow will hopefully sort. ;D
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Hi all...
Been down to Garry's today to take another look at said car...
Symptoms..
- Runs for a while then cuts out, almost like its not getting enough power
- Coil and leads are getting VERY hot
- Oil was really thin and watery (resolved now, rocker cover gasket was destroyed)
- Smells really rich
- Running really fast
Whats been done...
- Complete oil change
- Set the ignition timing again
- New gaskets and seals where required
- New thermostat
- Few other little jobs
- Tested the fuel pump and its fine
- Made sure there are no air leaks
Today I got it running sweet as a net, sounded like a perfect little sewing machine, it didnt smell too rich are seem to be running really fast like it was.. We had it running from a battery pack because the battery was rather flat but once running it was fine and charged fine by itself. When we took it ran really well until we took the battery pack off but when we took it off it ran for another few minutes but then cut out again, as soon as it all cooled back down it fired up fine and ran normally again...
Any suggestions?
I do have a video I'm going to upload to FlickR if anyone is interested
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Is the alternator/ dynamo charging sounds like it is running from the battery and once voltage drops it cuts out
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Ordering new HT leads (Chris got a shock from them and they are very old and not standard) and a new coil (it had originally been put on upside down by the garage, Chris corrected but it is now very hot) and having another crack next Friday.
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The battery is charging I think, the light works on the dash and when running it goes out, I will take my multimeter down on Friday and double check.
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Well, a massive thank you to Chris and Mark, After a 5 hour marathon Last night, I think Mrs BVs car may be fixed. The oils been changed, the thermostat flap propped open, a new ignition kit fitted, the timing sorted and a number of other jobs as well. The battery is the final question mark but it's been on a charger all night so hopefully I'll get chance to test later today. As ever, with our little cars the fix was not just one thing but other inter-related bits as well. I was exhausted by the end of it and I was only watching. Learnt a couple of things along the way though so all good fun!
Thanks again fella's, will try and sort a Xmas curry out on me and the missus either before year end or early in the New Year. I'll invite young Pete as well and call it a club meet! ;D
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Ok this car is starting to annoy me.... :rant :rant :rant :rant :rant :rant :rant :rant :rant :rant
It has had new....
Complete ignition system
Full change/service
New battery, the dynamo light isnt on anymore to say its not charging which is good.
It still cuts out after running for a few minutes!!!!
So when I rev is slightly, it rocks around a bit and slows down slightly and then when you stop accelerating, it idles ok for a while.
It eventually then cuts out randomly.. Then strangly after a few minutes it will start up fine and run fine and then cut out again.. and so on and so on :rant
I don't know what else to try really...
I'm going to reset the timing (I think its right already...)
I'm going to put new fuel lines on right the way back to the tank and a new fuel filter and go from there.
Any more suggestions would be ace!
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Chris (and Mark) have both done an excellent job on this car but it's still not quite there. It's gutting really especially as it's Mrs BV's car. The can't be much left to try so it is probably going to end up being something really simple...
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[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkK8o0ruYoU[/youtube]
Here is a video of it...
Lighting is poor but you get the jist of what is happening
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Its not an inlet or outlet valve set to tight is it and as it warms its not closing properly?
Seems like you've covered almost everything so far?
Ive had a very very similar problem with a motorbike and the turned out to be the carb float heights to high and it was flooding but only slightly and the excess fuel was making its way into the oil causing it to run rich as it was sucking the fumes from the petrol back into the engine by the breather.
It would start very easy when cold with little or no choke but as it warmed it would choke itself on the over rich fumes and slowly die until it cooled down then it would fire up and do it all over again.
I'm not familiar with the air cooled setup so dont know it this is possible on the fiat?
.
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That does sound possible, it smells very rich.
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Hi Gary
Once it cuts out will the engine turn over on the starter, still plenty of power in the battery ?
I have my suspicions the dynamo isn't putting out enough power to keep it running
I can pop down for a couple of hours one evening next week and have another look if you want
Don't get disheartened we will sort it :)
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I have a suspicion its fuel related. new battery with lots of charge :headscratch:
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Chris have you checked for leaks around the carb? Try to spray some carb cleaner round it and see what happens.
These carbs and spacers under them tend to warp from the heat, so need to check everything to make sure it`s sealed properly.
I also had a similar problem recently on a 500 and it turned out to be a worn out butterfly spindle. It just wouldn`t idle properly and would eventually just conk out.
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I've tried round the carb yeah, even put new gaskets on it. No air leaks that I can find
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Try it with a different carb from a good running car. At least you can then eliminate things.
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Yeah I'll take a carb I have down that I know works. Thanks! :)
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Re- inlet air leaks?
Might be an idea to smear some 'seam sealer' on to gaskets etc? Air leaks tend to be so small, that a lot of spray liquids [wd40, for example] are just too thick in consistency to find them [best use easy start for finding leaks?] Had this issue on another of my cars last year, when using an old-school rolling road to set it up after reconstruction.....Old-school tuner suggested seam sealer on gaskets as a good way of sealing properly....it worked, too.
Not having read through the whole thread, I'd try bypassing the fuel pump with an electric one?
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Thanks, Mark...Chris is popping back next Friday so will hopefully get sorted. We fitted a new battery so don't think it's that. To be honest, there's not much left to try so we can't be far away.
PS
I've not forgot the curry night, just got busy with work, will sort soon and will be great to meet up again. Likely to be turkey curry... ;D
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Hi, not sure if you guys have checked this but the mysterious cutting out could be that pesky rod that pushes the fuel pump. As the crankcase heats up the problem gets worse as now the rod is even shorter. It cools a bit then starts pumping again.
It runs strait off the cam and wears with time, could explain overheating too as the poor thing would be gasping for fuel, a it like Pete when he arrives at Retro rides looking for a beer. Might have missed that if you mentioned it.
I've pulled my manual pump off, installed a pressure regulator and running an electric pump, Installed an extra breather where the old pump was better breathing and more constant fuels pressure on the needle and seat is the theory.
It's just a thought.
You do know what Fiat means don't you? Fix It Again Tomorrow :P
But seriously when you get them running well they can be very reliable and cover some impressive distances.
In my experience there are two major reasons for overheating, Ignition timing or running lean.
It may sound very simple but you have to simplify it or it turns into a witch hunt. Thermostat in my opinion is extra weight on the air cooled and BIS.
Oil coolers help imensly if you start pushing for higher performance and the old boot lid opener on the air cooled helps hugely too. I know oil etc is a factor but then if it overheats it destroys the oil.
I had an electronic ignition thing that had curves you set with toggle switches. It now lives in a box in the shed, I think the guy who made it must have had a bad day or something because no matter what I did with it the car overheated. The simple one that goes where your points were is my preference.
Not sure if that rambling is of any use, good luck with that one ;)
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Just one more thing, please don t drive it far like that.
Overheating results in cracking of the head between the two valves. :cry:
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Thanks, Darrell, I'm psyching myself up to have another go this weekend. :(
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Just read through all this as I'm having strange cutting out issues now and occurring over progressively shorter distances! Is the switch to an electric fuel pump with regulator easy enough? Sounds a no brainier.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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You could just remove the rod that pushes the pump and by-pass the mechanical pump.
You could just push the fuel through the mechanical pump not sure how well that would work but it should work as there is just valves in the pump.
Or you could make a blanking plate and remove the mechanical pump. I did this and used the plate you can buy which has a breather pipe outlet attached. It just helps the lower crank breathe.
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Well, hours of effort and a small fortune in parts and we've still not cracked it. :(
To recap, it starts, runs for a bit and sounds fantastic, after about 5 minutes it starts to shake (I think it only has one cylinder working at this point) and then cuts out after a series of shudders.
We've tried lots:
New coil
New condenser
New HT leads
New spark plugs
New fuel sender
New battery
New oil
New petrol
Cleaned the carburettor
Tested the fuel pump
New fuel tubes
Replaced the fuel filter
New rocker shaft
We're running out of ideas and feeling incredibly deflated.
Any ideas or suggestions most welcome.
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Have you checked the valve clearances
When it cuts out have you checked there is any fuel in the carburettor float chamber (remove carb top and have a look)
If it was cutting out dead I would suggest an electrical fault
Slowly dyeing suggests fuel related problem
Offers still there Gary if you want me to call down
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Thanks, Mark, I think both Chris and I will take you up on that.
I'll give you a call later this week to line some time up.
Very much appreciated.
:thumbup
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I think you need to do a compression test when the engine is hot, after all the items you have replaced and checked the fault must be internal :headscratch:
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Thanks, Pete, I'll add that to the list. Desperate to give Kohli a chance to drive it this year before winter sets back in again. :thumbup
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This is going to sound both silly and insulting, so please be assured that I don't mean to be, but A) I've just watched your video of it dying, and B) I've just read the whole thread, and I don't see any mention of...
Air starvation.
Now before you scoff, just think: if air was being restricted flowing in through the bodywork grille and ducting into the main fan, then the air supply to the outside of the engine would be too low, hence the overheating, and the air supply to the air filter and hence to the inside of the engine would be too low, hence the cutting out, and the excess of petrol over air leading to the 'too rich' smell.
It's only a theory, but like I say, I don't see any mention of a new air filter, or checking the air ways. Easy test: run the engine as normal (so as to get as much cooling as possible) until it is starting to cut out, then whip off the air filter housing and air filter, or at least disconnect them so that fresh air can get into the inlet without restriction. If my theory is right, the engine should pick up again (but don't let it run too long on unfiltered air and without the full cooling flow).
If my theory is wrong, then the engine will just cut out completely as before.
And now you'll tell me oh yes, we did fit a new filter but forgot to mention it ! ;D
Anyway, really hope it's some blockage in the airway and not a cracked cylinder head :cry:
Good luck
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No problem Gary,
I can throw compression tester in the van as well
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Thanks, Mark and thanks everyone for the advice, will add it to the checklist. I think we changed the air filter but it's been so long now I can't remember. Will pop outside and check.
I'm working late next couple of days, Mark and trying to dodge some travelling so will give you a call later this week once I know when I'll be at home. Really appreciate the support.
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Hi Mark, I'm re-motivated and all charged up (wish my car was!)...is any time Friday, Saturday daytime or anytime Sunday this week any good. Please let me know, I'm feeling lucky so got a good feeling that you will crack it in one go!
;D
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To me its screaming something internal now, checked valve clearances and what not. the list is endless.
I'm lost on this car!!!!
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Lets have a go Friday evening, any time after 3 is good for me
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I'll be there most of Friday, going to start putting the other engine back together :)
See you then
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Watching this post with bated breath! I have the exact same problem with my Fiat 500 D, will go ok for about 9 miles then it overheats. I've changed and re-set everything three times, and I mean everything! Spoke with an old fashioned auto engineer today, he said unleaded petrol runs hotter and to knock the timing back to 4 degrees and it should cool it down. I tried it tonight, but haven't had the time to take it for a proper run. Have you checked the timing on the other (working) cars you have to see what they are set to ?
Please post up your results as soon as and I will do too....
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my Fiat 500 D, will go ok for about 9 miles then it overheats.
Can anyone remind me, why exactly is this thread called "Overheating" ? Unless you have a temperature gauge fitted somewhere, how exactly do you *know* that the engines are overheating? The only firm symptom I can recall seeing in the thread (I may have missed it, of course, it's been several months now) is that the engine cuts out after a fairly short time. Are there any other symptoms? Obviously the engine starts when it is cool, and stops after a while when it has warmed up. So it is "heating", but why do you think it is *over* heating?
Until you get to the temperature where the oil is breaking down *can* an air cooled engine overheat?
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Overheating is our current theory but right at the start the engine was definitely overheating because we had a chap with some gadgets measure the temperature in different parts of the engine and the bit on the right hand side was significantly over what Fiat said it should be. :o
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mine definitely overheating. Aside the fact it is starting to throw oil through every gasket, the oil light starts to flicker on at idle because the oil becomes so thin with heat.
Still haven't had a chance to drive it, but will do so over the weekend....
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That's interesting. I presume he simply placed a thermocouple against different areas of the engine. Obviously you'd want parity between the two sides, so for example you'd want the cylinder head on each side to be roughly the same. You'll never get them identical but I'd imagine within say 5 degrees of each other. But to say the absolute value of the temperature is much higher than it should be suggests that somewhere Fiat must publish this data.
I don't recall ever having seen such temperature data, either for any air-cooled Fiat or for any other air cooled engine like the VW. Haven't got my Haynes manual to hand to check, but is this data readily available and I've just never noticed it?
Reading around this issue, I've just found this item which suggests that if an air-cooled engine overheats it's simply because it is not being cooled enough: http://www.liquidcooledairpower.com/lc-topendheat.shtml
as opposed to something being "wrong", such as timing or fuel supply.
Running too hot leads to issues with the exhaust valves and seats, and the differential heat/cool cycles may already have caused damage such as cracking the head - you'll see that some service schedules recommended REPLACING the cylinder head as a SERVICE item!
One obvious if somewhat painful option might be to fit a known good cylinder head.
Another explanation may be that the engine isn't getting its full ration of cooling air, either because of some constriction or blockage causing air starvation as I suggested previously, or perhaps because the fan output is degraded - are there any broken fan blades? Or could the fan rotor be slipping on its spindle? Or is there any build up of grot in the cylinder head ducting or finning which is hindering the air flow? Or are there any gaps in the ducting allowing cooling air to by-pass the engine or cylinder head?
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mine definitely overheating. Aside the fact it is starting to throw oil through every gasket, the oil light starts to flicker on at idle because the oil becomes so thin with heat.
Apart from the heat removed by the exhaust gases themselves, the primary cooling is generally the oil underneath the piston crown - depends on the exact geometry of course, and a lot of heat gets away through the metal of the head, but the piston crown is typically a lot thinner than the head casting, plus the oil is continually flowing both under the crown and all around the cylinder walls outside the piston skirt.
So I am wondering whether in your case the heat is leading to thin oil, or perhaps lack of sufficient oil is leading to too much heat?
Have you checked that the oil filter is cleaned out, and that the oil pump is working properly? Frequently the oil filter is either not cleaned or not cleaned properly due to its location and type, so build up of residues here would impede oil circulation. Also a worn oil pump will not put out sufficient flow. It might be worth checking that the the oil system is up to scratch before worrying about other possible problems.
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Well, thanks to Mark and some gadgets we think we've found the root cause which is something that Rusty called out in one of his earlier replies. Whilst overheating may have been one of the original issues which we probably fixed without realising the latest diagnosis is that it is probably an electrical issue linked to the Dynamo not charging and/or the regulator not working.
We had the car hooked up to Marks mega-battery (because mine had gone flat) and the engine worked and sounded like a dream. After some time the GEN light came on and shortly after the engine cut out. Marks gadgets and experience helped us identify voltage issues which with phone a friend to Pete126 and Mark's auto-electrician friend pointed the finger to the Dynamo brushes needing replacing.
I'm going to order some of these and with Mark's help fit them. Hopefully that will sort it. If it does not then the regulator will be the next thing to replace. Please shout out if anyone knows where to get one cheap.
Should get all this done within the next week or so and will post a further update. Thanks for everyone's help and support, can't wait to see Mrs BVs car working in time for a summer convoy!
8) 8) 8)
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Great to hear the problem is found, Fiat126fan.sk has the regulator for €18 and Fiat500ricambi.nl for €35 but I think you can find em in UK for similar price.
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Thanks, Da Londo, much appreciated! :thumbup
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I too have read this thread with interest, I'm glad you've finally fixed the problem.
We have a Bis which has never had any overheating issues but I also have a Triumph Herald Coupé which had overheating issues for years. In the end I switched to super unleaded petrol (higher octane and low/no ethanol), advanced the ignition until it pinked and backed it off till it just stopped. No more overheating.
Someone mentioned that unleaded burns hotter than 4 star which is true. Being lower octane we have to retard the ignition. The combination of the 2 can cause overheating, especially if you're running with higher compression (perhaps the head has been skimmed.
Anyone having overheating issues should give this a go.
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Well, another marathon session, we changed the Dynamo brushes which was actually really interesting but did not sort it but did eliminate one other problem leaving the voltage regulator as prime suspect. We swapped it with one from one of my working cars and it is now charging much more correctly.
The plan now is to charge up the battery overnight and take it for a drive tomorrow. Very confident that it is now sorted but the drive tomorrow should prove it. If not the car will be on eBay with no reserve!
Massive thanks to everyone for their help and ideas and especially to Mark (and his gadgets and his auto-electrician friend!) and Chris!
:thumbup
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So Garry, how did it go? Just so I know if to keep an eye on eBay for an early 126 ;D
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Still not working... :(
I'm really not sure what else there is to do. :(
We've fixed lots of things along the way which will make it super if it ever does get fixed and for the short time when it does work it sounds better than any of my other cars.
It feels like we are back where we start with lots of stuff eliminate along the way and a better understanding of what is happening but not an absolute understanding of what is causing it.
It starts, runs super for a bit, after about 10 minutes the engine starts to shudder, then the red GEN light comes on and then it cuts out. When it cuts out it is very hot and takes about 10 minutes to cool, down before it will start again and repeat it all over again.
Mark has been amazing (as has Chris) and has promised to come back with some more gadgets to compare temperatures at different points in the engine to see if that will give us some clues. I think it will show that the right hand side of the engine is significantly (maybe 100 degrees) hotter than it should be but not sure why. If we can figure out what's causing it we will have cracked it. If not, Ladislav will be getting an eBay bargain. Which will serve me right as I originally outbid him on eBay for this car several years ago! :o
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Someone mentioned the cooling fins from the cylinders, have you ever taken of the cooling plates to see if air can pass around the engine?
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I mentioned cooling with both air and oil previously. Obviously if there *was* any electrical issue it has been sorted, since the engine starts and runs OK. The GEN light coming on sounds like a red herring, because as the engine starts to stall the revs drop and the light would come on anyway.
There are two questions, it seems to me: why does one side get hotter than the other, and why does getting hot stop the engine?
If an engine gets too hot, it doesn't just stop only to be startable again when it's cooled, it keeps running getting hotter and hotter until it seizes. So there are in my view TWO problems - one is that one side is getting too hot (so check blocked cooling airways, and blocked oilways - sorry, but an engine strip might be in order); the other is that something is breaking down when it is getting too hot (so this might well be an electrical item such as the coil - however, this issue can be 'solved' by not letting the engine get too hot in the first place. So that brings us back to a blocked airway or a blocked oil way.
There is one other way of looking at this: not enough cooling in one side might also be caused not by a blockage on *that* side, but by a massive leak on the *other* side.
For both oil and air, the cooling fluid comes from a common source (pump and fan respectively). It is then split into two halves, one to each cylinder. If one of those halves has a huge leak in it, allowing the fluid to escape, the *other* side will not get its full share of the fluid, and hence not get its full share of the cooling.
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At this moment in time I'm not convinced she is overheating and I have not seen anything to suggest as such
There was definitely a charging issue as only 12.5 volts produced at high revs and now producing 14.5 volts
She has reasonable compression with both cylinders at 125psi so pretty consistent and not suggesting it has nipped up
The oil warning light does not come on when running so suggests no excessive thinning of oil
I have a few ideas to try and hoping to get my partner in crime to assist so we can watch a couple of multimeter's at the same time and two heads are better than one
Will keep you informed after next Fridays episode
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I had what may have been a similar problem with my 500 and I changed everything plus bypassed components but never really got to the bottom of the problem but the thing that finally got rid of the problem was the fitting of electronic ignition. I could lend you one if you wanted to try it :)
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Thanks, Rusty, that's very kind.
I've got one in my 500 so we could always use that if needed.
PS
Please PM me your address when you get chance, I might be doing a South to North road trip soon so would be great to stop by and say hello... ;D
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Confirmed we will be coming mob handed on Friday
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My car had been off the road since january with a similar issue. After a 4 hour drive where the car ran like a dream, it refused to start the next day. After replacing points condenser and coil and tightening the bobweight springs I could start the car but not rev it at all and the longer it idled the worse it got until it cut out completely. handed the car over to my mechanic who then changed points and condenser again without solving the problem, almost a month goes buy and by chance the condenser my mechanic bought was fitted with the points I bought. Hey presto problem solved. The condenser I had bought brand new from ricambio was a dud and was failing as it got hot and the points my mechanic sourced had no continuity once they got hot. The combination of two brand new parts being duds from the beginning caused 3 months of head scratching and I'm pretty sure my mechanics hairline receded farther than usual.
If you happened to source your condenser from ricambio it may be from the same run of duds? But I doubt you got your points from Japan like my mechanic did.
It's good to be back on the road again and I hope Mrs BV gets the same satisfaction soon, best of luck guys!
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Have you checked what fan you are running....?
After months of problems with overheating, not starting hot (fuel vaporisation) and not being able to use the car for any sort of distance, I discovered that the aluminium fan fitted only has 10 fins, whereas the original has 14. It also doesn't have the ventura or scoop and apparently is not as efficient.
After changing, the car does seem to run distance, no flickery oil light after ten or so miles and it starts 'hot'! - So far so good.....
....Just a thought???
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Have you guys done a compression test on it at the end?
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Yes and it passed. All to play for tonight, Mark's back with some extra help so hopeful that we will sort. If not I'll let you have first refusal on this eBay bargain, Lad! :)
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I`ll get my popcorn ready for tonight ;D
Hope you guys get to the bottom of this, as it must be so frustrating. It`s driving me crazy and is not even my car(yet) :D
Just out of interest, have the valve clearances been checked?
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We're getting closer, big thanks to Mark and Amos for the time they've put in tonight after a hard days work. I'd like to say it was something really complicated but it's looking like it's going to be something relatively simple that we ticked off early on but was probably not at the right tolerance.
Mark's back tomorrow morning to make some final adjustments over a coffee and a bacon butty at which point we will know for certain. All being well the car will stay in the Vitelli family (sorry, Ladislav, looks like you've missed out on it again!) and with a decent weather forecast we might even get to drive it!
Thanks again to everyone for their support, I've learnt stacks through this and I'm really hopeful that we're close to getting it working!
:thumbup
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Garry, that`s good news. I keep my fingers crossed for you.
It would be nice if you guys could finally drive it.
TBH I need another 126 like a hole in my head. Anyone who has more than one of these cars must be nuts :P
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:wave MENDED :wave
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"MENDED" ????
"MENDED" ! ! !
Is that it?
EIGHT MONTHS with half the country hanging onto the edge of their seats with the suspense, and all you can say is "MENDED" ???
So what was it? Exhaust valve clearance too small? Engine starts fine, runs, valve gets hot, expands, now too long and won't seat fully, so poor compression on that side, loss of power, other cylinder doing all the work, so runs apparently hotter, but faulty valve side actually cooler, engine stalls. Cools down, valve contracts, seats properly now, engine starts up fine.
Whatever it was, WELL DONE !!!
PS: please DO tell ... !!!
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It was incredibly complicated... :$
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:D
I wish I could say it was really complicated but I would be telling porkys
Last night we fitted an in line fuel filter between pump and carburettor so we could observe fuel supply which was fine
We run the car up until as usual it started to cough and splutter then stalled
Whipped off the rocker cover and checked and set valve clearances, after starting she ran a lot longer before coughing to a stop
This morning after a bacon butty and coffee courtesy of Mrs B.V we adjusted the valve clearances once again as they are supposed to be set cold
Also decided to check points gap which was spot on
Now for the strange one
I noticed the distributor cap had small flakes of brass stuck around the inside and on closer inspection the segments had a groove in them which had been milled by the rotor arm
The rotor arm looked new and there was no way it had come into contact with the segments
Anyway Gary had a new cap so on it went
On start up it sounded better and it had lost the occasional cough it had
A decision was made to road test and it performed perfectly
drcdb15 hit the nail on the head with a great explanation of what was happening
Exhaust valve clearance too small? Engine starts fine, runs, valve gets hot, expands, now too long and won't seat fully, so poor compression on that side, loss of power, other cylinder doing all the work, so runs apparently hotter, but faulty valve side actually cooler, engine stalls. Cools down, valve contracts, seats properly now, engine starts up fine.
I have come to the conclusion with these little cars that although they are simple if they arent set up just right it causes major problems, in a four cylinder engine you would get away with a couple of the valve clearances being out and probably hardly notice
I should have found the problem a lot sooner with the old adage KEEP IT SIMPLE but it is very easy to get side tracked with different theories
The best thing about this was seeing the smiles on Mr and Mrs Bar Vitelli's faces when it was cured
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Well that is really excellent news - and getting it sorted, I mean, not my explanation!
It's a lesson well learned, as you say, but I am *so* glad it was a mere adjustment, and not a blocked oilway as I also suggested. It was when you mentioned about going over adjustments you thought you'd already set up properly that I realised the likely culprit. Far better that than a wasted engine rebuild!
Extra double celebratory bacon butties* all round, I'd say !
:yahoo:
* for our overseas friends, this is a traditional northern English delicacy widely enjoyed at times of great triumph ;)
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It was when you mentioned about going over adjustments you thought you'd already set up properly that I realised the likely culprit
I came into the problem after Gary and Chris started to struggle and was lead astray with the generator light and the very low charge rate , 12.9V at high revs and the fact the battery was flat
Still the parts fitted coil,condenser ,ignition leads, oil change are all serviceable items and not money wasted also the regulator was found to be faulty so another potential problem nipped in the bud
Sorry to all you guys lusting after the car but I think it will be a keeper now
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It's been a masterclass to watch with a terrific effort from Chris, Mark and Amos and I've picked up lots of learnings along the way and would probably be brave enough to try and change some of the serviceable bits myself now.
As Mark says there were a number of things that caught our eye and lead us down a different path, especially the electrical elements that were not what they should be. The really good news is that the car sounds amazing and much better than any of my other cars. As a 126 owner, I've always managed to dodge the serviceable bits because money is tight and the cars continue to work but they really do make a big difference to performance so are well worth doing.
Thanks again to everyone for the all the support, Mrs BV and I are thrilled to have this car back on the road!
:thumbup :thumbup :thumbup :thumbup :thumbup :thumbup :thumbup
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Great to hear you guys got it fixed, I think this one is a good lesson for all of us.
And maybe the most important thing is to believe in finding a cure, how many of our little are abandoned while the problem could have been fixed easily.
Great job and great to see so many on here looking for a solution.
United we stand.... or something in that region....
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Good to hear that you got it sorted but you did not say what caused the damage inside the distributor cap :)
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I could not see any reason for the damage in the distributor cap
I can only assume it has had a wrong rotor arm fitted at some point as it has milled a slot through the segments a couple of mm deep
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So was it stalling because of a badly adjusted exhaust valve clearance, or a damaged dizzy cap?
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This car is now fixed! We thought we had fixed it but then it broke down again and although we kept on trying it began to seem impossible. I dare not post because that in itself became stressful in spite of everyone's help.
We did, however, persist and kept trying a number of different things. In the end, after nearly 4 years of trying, we took it to some wonderful Polish people who managed to fix it inside 2 weeks!
I'm going to write and share a full summary because we learnt so many things through this whole experience and if that can help anyone else then that will be an added bonus!
We drove the car 87 miles home yesterday and it did not miss a beat. It runs better than any of my other cars which is great because it's actually my wife's car. Even better it's her 50th birthday next week and getting this fixed was my present to her which has earnt me endless brownie points!
I meant to write the summary yesterday but had too much G&T and have already overdone it on the red wine today! I'll get it written up next week and post it on here.
A big thanks to everyone who has helped me, especially the Polish people, to Rusty for his spare parts and sense of humour (I think we must be related!) and to Ladislav for his magnificent moral support and encouragement.
The key lesson is that these little cars are worth fighting for so if you have one don't ever give up!
:thumbup
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wow what a thread, great forum help too, ;D
just wondered did you replace the earth lead from engine to body??
great to hear your car now goes a to b. ;D
F
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This car is now fixed! We thought we had fixed it but then it broke down again and although we kept on trying it began to seem impossible. I dare not post because that in itself became stressful in spite of everyone's help.
We did, however, persist and kept trying a number of different things. In the end, after nearly 4 years of trying, we took it to some wonderful Polish people who managed to fix it inside 2 weeks!
I'm going to write and share a full summary because we learnt so many things through this whole experience and if that can help anyone else then that will be an added bonus!
We drove the car 87 miles home yesterday and it did not miss a beat. It runs better than any of my other cars which is great because it's actually my wife's car. Even better it's her 50th birthday next week and getting this fixed was my present to her which has earnt me endless brownie points!
I meant to write the summary yesterday but had too much G&T and have already overdone it on the red wine today! I'll get it written up next week and post it on here.
A big thanks to everyone who has helped me, especially the Polish people, to Rusty for his spare parts and sense of humour (I think we must be related!) and to Ladislav for his magnificent moral support and encouragement.
The key lesson is that these little cars are worth fighting for so if you have one don't ever give up!
:thumbup
Did you get around to writing up what the Polish people did to fix it? Hopefully your not still sozzled on red wine and G + T!. -)))
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I sat down and tried to write up a summary but I could not figure out exactly what they had done to fix it and I’m not sure that they knew for certain either! The language barrier was a challenge, the lead mechanic did not speak much english and I only know one word of polish which is fortunately the word for thankyou!
They went through an extensive process of elimination, doing all the things that we had already done, taking off the new parts we had fitted and putting the old ones back on, changing the oil for polish oil which was specifically imported as it was the only oil that they believed in! They were very excited by the indicator relay switch which was flashing faster than it should have been and for a while I thought that this was how they had fixed it but now believe that it has probably more to do with the polish coil (again specifically imported) and how they have fitted it, bypassing the distributor and feeding directly to the spark plugs. I did not even think that this was possible but the engine runs so smooth and beautiful I’m not going to change it!
The whole experience from start to finish was exhausting but I’ve learnt so much about ‘overheating’ and how to diagnose it that it has definitely been worth it! I’m not very mechanical but I’m much more able to diagnose and even spot things that trained mechanics would miss because of my acquired knowledge of these little cars and even managed to fix one myself recently!
(https://i.postimg.cc/GBLsbxt4/61625-F1-A-A346-4-D42-B124-04-E4-AAD6-DA34.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/GBLsbxt4)
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Here’s a picture of us picking it up, we drove 84 miles there in the green car before driving the 84 miles back in convoy to horn toots all the way!
(https://i.postimg.cc/cKxsbs43/EC39-BDE7-53-A3-40-DC-814-B-4-A6-AF75-A39-E6.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/cKxsbs43)