Club126UK
Fiat 126 Chat => Tuning & Customising 126 Models => Topic started by: smallcox on October 31, 2010, 10:22:07 PM
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So sitting on the toilet and thinking to myself (can you picture the moment) NO,
BHP and 126 engines, my calculation say it takes a fiat 27cc to make 1 hp :oops:
The modern engine averages 13-15cc to a 1HP, so based on that theres room for improvement [-/
Has anybody rolling road a modified 126 engine and what the best BHP out there. I have herd talk about 70bhp from the racing world but is that fact or quess work. The last rolling road session a had was 24 bhp at the wheels on a normally asperated engine. Is it possible to build a 100 BHP monster with 2 cyclinders.
This is your favourite subject Darrell, and don't tell me about the phantom 135mph 595 because we need fact and Rusty will slam you old boy.
Cheers and off to bed after half a bottle of scotttttttch Smallcox [-/ [-/ [-/
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:P I have to chuckle on this one as I've pondered the same thing for years, it's why I have ventured down the route of trying to find the formulas etc etc and research on the net, which the article on the 135mph 695 mysteriously disappeared. I think Rusty also saw it but not sure on that one. I think someone must have found out it was rubbish :P
I have resigned myself to the fact that only small increases are possible as if you take a 650 twin bike engine, it'll produce more horsepower but less torque and we need torque no? But this again is pondering...Of course there must be room for improvement, but no one has ever tested the improvements in stages... and I have broken enough for now in the persuit of speed for now :oops:
I planned to put mine on a rolling road but wife wants conservatory so conservatory has stopped play. Over £90 a run on the local rolling road is spoiling play in a big way!
As for the fabled 70hp 595's etc, I've never seen any proof they ever got that, and have to chuckle at claims of doubleing horsepower as there never does seem to be any proof :oops:
Somehow I dont think the 500 club have anyone with figures to check either so we might be 'pioneers' [-/
Somehow the horsepower figures and sucking one's thumb comes to mind [-/
I take it you not working tomorrow [-/
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I thought your car was around that mark. :P Theres a bloke in Sydney who claims to have 65BHP in his 650 blocked 795cc engine in a 500. That would have to make it an @ 90FWHP engine. A good engine makes 1FWHP per cube. This one is pushing nearly 2FWHP per cube. Given that i doubt its possible to build a n/a twin cylinder to develop 100BHP using standard castings as it would need to have @ 135FWHP and thats nearly 3HP per cube-F1 territory. Of course anything is possible but i see a lot of custom parts and an expensive exercise for anyone who wants to achieve this.
My philosophy is you either keep it standard or if you want to modify, stick a bike engine in it. Its far more effective everythingwise - power, weight, and costs(in the end). Retro fitted fiat engines are ok but from what i have seen they place too much weight behind the rear axle (sorry Jan). My engine/box/diff setup weighs less than 100kg and i'm currently trying to distribute the weight to all 4 corners of the car as evenly as i can. I'm using simple bathroom scales x 4 placed under each tyre. So far the weights are LHR 157kg, RHR 168, LHF 69, RHF 85. its an ongoing process >:(
Oh and by the way if anyone says that a bike engine doesnt have the required torque to push a 126 i would urge them to sit down with a calculator and compare torque to weight figures to any modern performance car and they will get a shock :D
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No i am not working tomorrow,
My plan is to sort out bearing loads then see if a 3 bearing crank is required for 100bhp. But you are asking is this possible, only if you believe it's so, because you have to move the goal post our your just copying the past.
Smallcox, never set me a challenge ::)
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3 bearing crank :o
I was thinking along the lines of copying the old boys, then seeing if there are any new ideal to play with [-/
Roller bearings on crank yes?
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Thought about a counterbalance shaft? :oops:
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Roller bearing on cranks?
I think for racing maybe but for road use no way my son? to nosiey harsh, just bad news. when did you hear off a car company using roller bearings in there engines
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The old Suzuki GSX1100 had roller bearing cranks.
They developed a reputation of having a virtually indestructable crank. Heads and piston rings would go first :oops:
Used to be a party trick to light one's fag on the pipes at rally's with some guys i knew :oops:
I wasnt thinking cars :oops:
PS I have a Ducati 996 engine in the shed :oops:
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Now Gxsr126,
Who said it had to be N/A engine, just is it possible to build a road going 100BHP 126 engine. most modern engines use Turbos/chargers
PS motor bike engines are not reliable in a road car or refined. :o
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Darrell,
I will light my fag with a lighter thanks :P
It was just an excuse to suck pipe in the old days
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When I bought the 795 ccs engine with the Alquati parts the guy was talking about it making 56 bhp , sounds like a big ask to me but who am I to argue with a man who is a renowned test pilot with a history of tuning & racing classic cars & bikes as a hobby :oops:
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OK Smallcox,
I thought you were talking n/a. Yes i agree, if you go turbo you should be able to achieve 100BHP, but the issue of custom parts required to handle the stress of a turbo still makes it expensive. I would drop the compression to 6:1 put a monster turbo on it and run it at around 40psi. I've done this with a suzuki 1.3 engine but reliabilty becomes a big issue.
What makes you say that bike engines are not reliable :o
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Hey Darrell,
996 Ducati :P i think they made about 135bhp and 105nm.
Here's some quik comparisons for you:
480kg(being the ideal weight to get a 126 down to)/135bhp=3.55kgs per bhp
480kg/105nm= 4.57kg per nm.
Compare that to a HSV W427 (the most powerful street car produced in Oz) with figures of 503bhp,613nm & 1874kg
and you get 3.72kgs per bhp & 3.05kg per nm.
I have to admit that the nm figure is down a bit but remember this a 427cid V8 motor in one of the latest cars capable of doing 11s in the quarter. And its being compared to a Ducati motor. I dearly wanted to put a Duke in the niki to keep it all italian (being one myself) but they just werent powerful enough for me. My suzuki 1300 gsxr engine puts out 240bhp and 191nm (do the math). I'm aiming for 10s quarters [-/
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Let me think, I beleive a bike engine is reliable when fitted to a bike but...... When a heavier vehicle is used their reliablity drops but i quess 80% of this is down to how well they are fitted like all things. Also if you use the car often bike engines are harsh but great fun after all grass track racing see many bike engines sitting in the rear seats powering cars round all season.
I don't believe it's possible to build 100hp to use all that power all the time because off block flexing issues and the cyclinder head ability to flow well, but the modern road car say impressa turbo 230hp from 2 litre with a warrenty so 700cc equals 80hp we are talking engine bhp here,but the impressa can be modded to well the sky but say 300hp then that takes 700cc to 105bhp. Now mitsubishi don't they do a 400hp 2 litre with a warrenty.
so as mentioned on the 1st post a modied 650 engine with 15cc per hp = 43.3hp
So i ask is it possible with all the draw backs off the 2 cyclinder engine is it possible to build a 100 bhp engine that is road usable?
Smallcox :-
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I'd say it would be possible, just that i reckon it would vibrate a lot (vibrates quite a bit with just 24hp)....
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If you wanted 100hp and useable, best bet would be get Jan's 1.2MPI machine, and replace that engine with the 1.4 16v from a Panda 100hp.
And watch as the gearbox floats away in a shower of iron and oil ... :oops:
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I'm guessing the 100hp engine swap would be easy [-/
But hey I think it must be possible to build a 100hp engine out of a 126 engine, what would be left of the engine's original bits wont be much :P
But think I'll leave that to someone cleverer than me :-
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at the end of the day if you had the know how and the money and the time it would be possible to make one that ran on farts let alone 100 bhp but as we are all lacking one or more of these components it will always remain a question we can pursue whilst sitting on the loo, may i say that if someone did manage a fart powered engine then i am the man to fuel it....
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I'd be happy to go for some kind of 'kit' that was guarenteed to give me 40+ hp and as reliable as she is now.
I see kits all over, bigger pistons etc etc but then, no facts or figures on what one can expect.
Thus fart power seems more achievable....I think the inlet in the middle of the seat, the oulet on the opposite side to the exhaust... I expect bursts of power and a happier wife :oops:
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My dream would be to see one of the new TwinAir engines in a 126, as they're 2 cyl but that would involve a lot of ECU fiddling ...
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Sounds interesting.
Has anyone done a motorbike motor conversion? How does it all work with fitment? Is the transplant straight forward with the aid of custom mounts? What gearbox is used and can it handle the power?
gsxr126, What conversion are you doing? and how difficult do you think it will be? Cost?
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Sam, Ive got three going atm. 2 with bike motors and one with a gti engine. I've done the most work on the busa engined niki but this project has been going since Aug08. I dont get the time to work on my projects these days.
I dont really like to impart advice on this subject as there are a million ways of doing it. I have a full picture and notes diary that i will post here once all done and then people can praise/knock it all they like.
What you need to remember is the intended use. If you want to have it "street registred" you'll need to follow the guidelines in your state. In NSW the max engine size allowable is 1360cc.
Cost is really up to your budget. I bought my two complete bikes as "unrepairable write offs" at the auctions (interesting experience that bidding), $3214.50 for the 08 model busa, and $3758 for the 10 model gsxr1000. The beauty of buying the bike complete is that you have all the bits. I paid $85 for the car. BMW diff complete was $150 - ebay, Rusty's caliper plates for the front $35 delivered (bargain of the century- I suggest you get some if he has any left), punto discs and calipers $200, $550 on a pair of coilovers, $85 on chrome moly tubing, probably about $3-400 on other bits and pieces and $0.00 for the labour which has been about 220 hours to date. Lots of to and froing has added to the hours. So given that the mechanicals should set you back about 5-7K
My 1000 engine is transverse mount, chain drive, turning an E36 BMW irs diff. The engine fits neatly, the diff required some fiddling but no mods to the chassis, then the rest was sorting linkages, electricals etc... How difficult it is depends on your skill & determination i suppose.
What i think is the main consideration is keeping the weight down/balanced, then suspension/brakes. A 240hp bike engined 126 is a scarily fast animal.
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I know what you mean mate. I think time is my biggest concern. I would like to see photos of your current conversions and get an idea of the effort put into the custom mounts/brackets/fiddly parts. If there was a step by step guide available to doing the conversion I would actually consider it.
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gxsr126,
i will salute you for that little monster you are putting together, local guy to me tells me he has a motor bike engine coupled to a seirra gearbox? not seen it mysell but he told me it's very unbalanced. I like your thinking keeping the cars handling balanced, after all big power will crap handling removes the fun unless you like ditches.
You must post some pictures i believe a lot off interest in this conversion
Sweet [-/
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Depends so much on the type of bike engine as to the driveablity, I'd imagine a Busa engine would be awesome being as it is the fastest prodiction motorcycle of this year or last or last :P
My 600 is frenetic, one must change gears to keep it in the power band all the time however the old XS11 will run from 30mph to over 100mph easily..in 5th Obviously is doesnt pull hard at 30 in 5th, more like a gentle push [-/
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Smallcox, thanks, when i first started research on the conversion popular thinking led me to inline mount, quaiffe diffs, sierra gearboxes, etc, etc, etc...... so i built my busa project sort of in this way. Chain drive diffs and "car" gearboxes wasnt the way i wanted to go as both my setups have an integrated gb and wet clutch setup.
The inline setup 1300 is chain drive to a bearing mounted shaft and being solid mounted does transfer some vibrations into the chassis, but it is not unbalanced in any way. Have taken this up to 200kmh+ and no unbalanced feeling.
The transverse setup 1000 is becoming my favourite as the appearance can be kept somewhat std looking (you dont have an engine sitting behind your ears) :oops: This is also chain drive to a flipped BMW E36 diff with modified suspension pickup points (ie: no mods to chassis). This also uses the bike gb and wet clutch setup, but its not at driving stage yet so i dont know how unbalanced or how much vibration i will get yet.
So i think in theory the "unbalanced" issue comes from mating components from different vehicles and the engineering involved. As for unreliabilty, the only issue i think i will have is that over time the gb may feel the strain of an extra 180kg :-
Bloody work getting in the way of me finishing these projects now. Just been appointed CFO and the last 3 months have been super hectic. I havent even looked at my projects since August. I will post photos of the project as soon as it complete (at least the mechanicals) which should be around Jan2011
Darrell, give me some power and nm specs on your 600 and XS and i'll give you performance specs (1/4 mile times) on both those engines in a 126 weighing 480kg. You got it in one with your last comment - its all about power/torque to weight [-/
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here in germany there are a few Fiat500 and 126 with a Citroen Visa engine with about 34 HP. The Visa engine is a 2-cylinder air cooled boxer.
And, what is more funny, I know one 500 with a citroen GSA engine with about 68 HP. The GSA is similar to the Visa, but a 4cylinder boxer, air cooled... But be careful: It's quite a lot of work to be done! ;)
have a look:
http://picasaweb.google.com/RomanGreisl/Fiat500GSMotor#
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here in germany there are a few Fiat500 and 126 with a Citroen Visa engine with about 34 HP. The Visa engine is a 2-cylinder air cooled boxer.
And, what is more funny, I know one 500 with a citroen GSA engine with about 68 HP. The GSA is similar to the Visa, but a 4cylinder boxer, air cooled... But be careful: It's quite a lot of work to be done! ;)
have a look:
http://picasaweb.google.com/RomanGreisl/Fiat500GSMotor#
Love that [-/ [-/ [-/
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Ok,
So I spent some time today clearing the garage just to make some room for when the engine is taken out.
I'll post some pictures once the engine is on the bench, as this will be a budget overhaul but also try to push the boundries off 2 cyclinder power. [-/
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Alfons1972 how thick is the addapter plate for the visa and the gsa engines?
Ralph
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Normally it is like 8mm plate I think but 10mm should do it surely :oops:
I want to go look at Jan's soon so will report back [-/
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You need to be quick its back on Ebay again.
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Engines out,
Removed the sump just to have a look, sorry the pictures tiped over but just under the conrod half way along spot the oil jet pointing at the piston to keep it cool and the modded conrods out off a rover engine
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What wonder what sort of modification did this 126p aircooled have?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tPnu9ROidM&feature=related
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http://club126uk.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=5233.0
:oops:
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Found this picture on the net.
Now this is what you call engine swap. It is one of the TAZ cars. I`m just wondering how can it be road legal.
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looks like it has an independant chassis and just a cut down shell over that, and vosa must have had a good poke around that one for sure.
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I think the 100 HP from stock fiat 650cc engine is to much. In Poland it is quite popular to put difrent FIAT's engines instead 650, most popular are this from Cinqecento and Siecento (900cc ~34BH, 1100cc Sporting ~ 55 BH). There also few with 1.2 engine from Fiat Palio (16 valves, 75 HP).
In polish amateur racing, from original 650 engine can be obtained 40-48 HP.
And here some interesting links:
Photos from building Bis, whith a 1.4 engine from Punto (95BH)
http://www.budowaswapow.com/index.php?id=kanale/bis/bis
Maluch with 1.1 turbocharged engine (120BH)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-lrWTlecLE
Both builded in Poland :D
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Wow that's some driving from the last post of 1.1 turbo 126 and 112mph [-/
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http://tuning.pl/_prezentacje_MAXI_Maluch-aid_964_.html
More info
(sorry it's obviously in Polish)
But nice pics for the non Polish speakers.
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Agree on the driving skills, you'd have to be an excellent driver to handle that thing. It seems very heavy in the arse. One of the main reasons i kept away from the car engines for my conversion. The roll cage looks excellent though [-/