Club126UK
Fiat 126 Chat => Tuning & Customising 126 Models => Topic started by: tcosy on March 22, 2009, 09:17:27 PM
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I've just bought a BIS (see Resto section) its a non-runner at present but that appears to be an ignition issue. 1st thoughts were to change the engine, but now i'm inclined to just work with what i have. A bit of research suggests the engine should develop 26bhp when in optimum state (which i'm sure it isn't) however a bit more digging reveals that this engine was re-used in the Cinquecento (poland). In that install the engine (still 704cc) produced 30-31 bhp (extra 15%) still running on a Carburettor but maybe electronic ignition. Does anyone have any information so that i can understand what changes were made and if the Head/Carb/Cam/whatever are available?
Last question has anyone injected a 126 Air or Bis engine and if so what system and what results did they obtain?
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Don't know what the spec is on that engine, only it rotates anti clockwise from the bis.
Maybe Dajwid or goombas might be able to find out from a polish site ???
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Thanks Pete, Dajwid/Goombas any information would be greatly appreciated. It feels like 35 bhp with reasonable torque and excellent economy should be available from an injected mildly tuned engine of 704cc. Also keen to understand the origins of the engine (just for the record). For a concern the size of FIAT to invest in an engine development for such a niche market as Poland is difficult to understand, and the specification of the engine implies it is from a previous generation of FIAT's, by the time FIAT had got to the late sixties all new designs were OHC, and legacy Lanica engines would be either flat4/DOHC-4Cyl/V4, so a line of logical origin would seem to be the OHV 903cc family, but that has a 65mm x 68mm (Bore x Stroke) at its maximum capacity, whereas the BIS has 80mm x 70mm, which would virtually guarantee that it didn't have its origin in that design. Any info greatfully received. PS Has anyone asked the Factory?
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Hy, the question you have posted is really an interesting one, it would seem that the bis engine was newly developed just for the car, and that is why it has so many bugs, the cinqecento 704cc engine was greatly revised from that of the bis and it seems to be much more reliable, if you manage to get any data on the engine post it here, im really interested.
As for improving the power of your bis, from what ive read in the last 2 years no engine will fit straight on, and all modifications take a lot of effort, so if you dont plan to race it, i would recommend fixing the orig engine, its the cheapest and simplest alternative... [-/
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The CC700 cylinder head has 1mm bigger inlet valves. From what I know the cc700 head should be plug&play for bis.
Trying to convert the cc700 engine to fit BIS is pointless as most of the parts would have to be adapted from BIS anyway.
Regarding the originis of BIS engine - it is closely related to the aircooled engine as many parts are interchangable, for example crank shaft from BIS will fit aircooled (but CC700 crankshaft will not fit BIS without some minor mods)
EDIT:
Re fuel injection: there has been at least one BIS in Poland with single point fuel injection running MegaSquirt
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theres a bis in the uk running injection it belongs to a forum member on here and Ive seen it (overtaking me) so it must work well....its seriously smart!
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Thanks for the feedback thus far, seems i made a classic mistake in assumming that the air and water cooled 126 engines were unrelated, but a closer look at the Bore/stroke of the WC engine to the AC engine perhaps would have taken me to that conclusion. Thanks for the info Mali :)
It is well documented that the engine in the Cinquecento (CC700) version ran in the opposite rotation, so is of limited value, unless the block (crank) received some worthwhile mods. The Head however seems a worthwhile starting point, with its increased valve size. Cams probably not.
So i guess the two questions i would like to table are:
1) Does anyone have a contact for a secondhand head for a CC700?
2) Can the Forum owner who has injected his BIS please step forward and give us the engine spec and if known a rolling road ouput of the power/torque curves.
I would like to look at multipoint direct injection, but as a stepping stone to that, perhaps the following actions.
Single point
Multipoint
Multipoint Direct Injection.
Thanks all
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Why not just put a different engine in, why bother with a CC engine with the tiny HP it puts out?
Alfa engine to keep the italian feel, anything will go in with the determination. We all know of mad engine swaps. Why the 700CC engine?
Just seems you are looking for the hardest way to get more power.
Or maybe I am talking out of my bottom.
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You are absolutely correct if the pursuit was power alone. I wanted to keep the car near standard, but also explore using the best of what Fiat had to offer and bring some technology to the solution. The real focus is economy, but as power and efficiency are bed fellows, the path is similar. If i was to go down the route of an engine swap then i would be thinking Alfa Boxer 1.7 16v as my other Classic car is a Alfa Romeo Alfetta GTV 3.0 V6, etc.
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i find the most ecconomic thing to do is nothing , i dont even get up somedays... ;)
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That's an excellent plan, why have i been so blinkered?, i'll stick with that for now :)
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I might be the only one in here, but to me 126 makes sense only with 2cyl in back.
Its a bit like with a VW Beetle/Camper - only aircooled flat 4s are cool.
I hope that you will go ahead with your fuel injected BIS project, as very few people have gone down the route of modifying BIS engine compared to aircooled.
Good luck and please keep us informed.
Regards,
Mali
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Its a bit like with a VW Beetle/Camper - only aircooled flat 4s are cool
Mmmmm, many scooby or Audi t25 owners would disagree as would the many 911 engined VWs out there. also flat 4s are very easy to mod due to the millions of them out there. Parts are easy to come by, bolt on mods are cheap and easy to do.
Same goes for the Aircooled engines, plenty of bolt on goodies as well as mad, madder and crazy mods available.
Bis engine re-design gets a lot more difficult, I just said if more power was the aim a transplant would be a lot quicker and a million % more successful.
Many have tried to mod bis engines, rebores, carb changes, turbos and injection and apart from a couple of HP more or a few ml less fuel usage have never really been too earth shattering.
Nearly all the 126 owners that decide to go down the engine tuning route go for an aircooled.
Then again most new owners that decide to squeeze more and more power from a 126 end up with an unfinished project in the garden.
But some like a standard 126 aircooled, some like Bis, some stuff a V8 or a w****el in the back, others stick on spoilers and paint them dayglow green, some even paint them mat black.
So just do what you want at the end of the day. Thats why this forum is so much fun.
Bloody hell that was a sensless rant about nothing.
:oops:
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...........and relax :)
The plan is to get the BIS running (as it doesn't yet) Strip, weld, zinc spray, etch prime and paint. replace running gear where needed, lower it and fit nice wheels and a decent interior. Run standard engine and develop new CC700 injection engine on a rig. I can call on a number of Jaguar Engine development engineers for injection spec/engine mapping. When !!! successful, fit into car, hopefully this will mean its not just another garden project, but no promises.
The Alfa project wavered a bit on route, but got there in the end. I'll keep everyone informed thro thr resto section. But i still need that contact/stroke tech info on a cc700 head/etc. oh yeah plus the info on the injected BIS out there.
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the only thing i can suggest is have a word with fiat for the cc spec .
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I think you will be able to get the 30 bhp from a standard bis engine with some tweeks. Getting hold of a cc700 cylinder head would be pretty difficult and I guess a bit expensive. It is like trying to get hold of an Air-cooled Panda head. You still can, but they are hugely expensive. (Has anyone ever seen a Panda with air-cooled engine?)
If you want to stick to the original engine, and get some more bhp just try to do all the possible mods to it you can...
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Getting a 700 head is very easy
http://allegro.pl/item585431571_glowica_fiat_cinquecento_700_stan_b_d_okazja.html
cost about £20
Again Poland is place for CINQUECENTO parts
For info got to
http://www.clubcento.co.uk/
If there is anyone who knows, its these guys.
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Or this guy who sells brand new ones:-
http://allegro.pl/item567828417_glowica_fiat_cinquecento_700_oryginal_nowa_100.html
Panda heds are like rocking horse Sh*t but CC heads no problems at all.
Would the 900 CC head fit straight on ????
Try this link for a few more:-
http://allegro.pl/search.php?string=cinquecento&from_showcat=1&category=50838&country=1
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Can`t believe how cheap those Cinquecento heads are. :o Well, if I was a bis owner I would consider one of them...
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The top photo is the CC700 head and below is a photo of my bis head, they look identical, as Mali said if the inlet valves are 1mm bigger, in my opinion this is not where the extra 6bhp comes from, its more likely to be a slightly higher compression ratio.
If you look at the photo of the cc700 engine it looks to be using a waste spark coil or could it be a twin coil pack as the distributor is missing, must be triggered by a TDC sensor and other electronics, as for the carb it uses the same twin choke weber.
Also the exhaust manifold is different cause it runs thru to the back.
(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m152/pedro126/cylinderheads.jpg)
Here's what they sound like ;D
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-768540567179422494&hl=en
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Thanks to all contributors thus far. Seems the cc700 head is a viable route, especially as the cost is very reasonable. A few questions
1) Dajwid - did you mean the 900cc head and if so was that 900cc version of the BIS engine or a slip of the finger on the keyboard?
2) Is Allegro a Polish ebay equivalent and if so has anyone any experience of using it? for the money quoted i would probably go for a new head as long as its complete, but obviously i am useless with the polish language so any help greatfully recieved.
3) You can see that the inlet Valve is larger in the CC700 head, I will contact the clubcento to try and establish Valve timing and lift. Assumming the timing is Assymetric as in the 126 BIS engine, and the engine rotation is counterclockwise, this would make the Cam unuseable in a 126 install, so a new Cam/regrind would be needed. I'll ask these guys about the timing pickup too.
Thanks Pete for the Pictures of the two Heads, the waterways appear to have been enlarged and/or the head is skimmed for a higher CR.
Pete are you trying the same experiment as you are unlikey to have a spare cc700 head around otherwise.
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I'm a member on ClubCento, if you draft up your query ('cos I don't really know what you're after :oops:) I'll ask the techy guys and see what they say.
I will freely admit though, most of them know more about the 1108cc engine than anything else but it's worth a shot :)
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If you look at the photo of the cc700 engine it looks to be using a waste spark coil or could it be a twin coil pack as the distributor is missing, must be triggered by a TDC sensor and other electronics, as for the carb it uses the same twin choke weber.
Well spotted. CC700 had electronic ignition system similar to the ones used on >1994 aircooled engines - maybe it would be possible to adapt the ignition from one of those to fit your BIS. I've been planning to get that done to my aircooled but my car is still in pieces and still in Poland :-
Regarding the waterways in both heads - I just remembered that head gasket is the same for both cc700 and BIS so waterway should be at least similar.
EDIT: One more thing worth looking at is exhaust system - I think that, as CC700 had engine in the front, there was much more space to sort out the exhaust properly, so I wouldn't be supprised if the exhaust system would be the biggest contributor to the 5hp increase on CC700.
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lol, so we take the exhaust, and direct it forewards </4
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</4
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Eklipze3k, i'll get that information yo you over the weekend, thanks.
I know i'm always asking but :), for reference has anyone got a picture of the Air-Cooled head, (i think there were a number of different revisons), from a similar angle to those provided by Pete126 of the BIS head, so i can do a visual comparison with the BIS combustion chamber size and shape. This is the information i have thus far on the BISvcc700 engine.
BIS
26bhp @ 4500rpm
49NM @ 2000rpm
(126.9bmep)
cc700
31.4bhp @ 5000rpm
52NM @ 3000rpm
(134.6bmep)
so a 6% increase in efficiency (bmep) hence 6% increase in torque yet a 20% increase in power.
Power is a product of rpm and as can be seen the modest torque peak increase is at a 50% increase in rpm (no curve available to compare)
So taken on face value this would indicate that the breathing at higher rpm was improved significantly over the BIS install the compromise being torque generated significantly higher up in the rev range (not a big problem 1 up in a light car, not much fun 4 up!)
So my little brain would thus deduce that we are talking classic tuning route, bigger valves, more lift/duration, free flowing exhaust, better ignition/fueling.
Hopefully i can get the Cam lift/duration from clubcento/polish contributors.
What is a reasonable bhp/torque figure for a road tune AC engine, what cam timing/fueling/exhaust?
Is 35+bhp attainable with Multiport injection, i'd like to think so
Cheers all
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On the left-Panda head, on the right standard 650cc 126 head...
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[-/ Although I am a bit of an Aircooled nut I have also had a Bis for 3 years so have some roots there & I know from the 126 forum that many Bis owners have been frustrated by the lack of tuning options so I find this relatively new thread / idea very interesting. Out of interest , doing a quick sum , if a 32mm diameter valve is increased to 33mm then that gives a 6.35% in volume on the inlet flow and that is neglecting the valve stem area. Assuming the porting is increased in line then that might account for some of the power increase ???
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Check out the link http://www.fiat500sport.com/def.asp?l=ENG&sku=1472D065870 it shows what is available for the air cooled and the power gains. could give an insight of how to up the power on the bis :)
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:o they have got some pretty impressive stuff.
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I have created a Spreadsheet for Eklipze3k to post to the clubcento, which has the BIS std spec, the cc700 std spec where known and a column for a tuned cc700 spec. It has some conditional formatting on it so that the red cells '?' turn green when the data is submitted, just so that it is easier to see where there is a data shortfall. How do i get it to him?
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E-mail it to me:
frazer DOT verth AT fiat-scotland DOT com :)
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OOPS, file too big, try this
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I'll pop that on, see if I can get the blanks filled in. [-/
Does this page help at all btw?
http://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car/?car=38192
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A bit of data for you on cc700:
compr. ratio: 9.0
Camshaft timing at 0.45mm valve control gap:
Inlet: open: 15 deg
close: 58 deg
Exhaust: open: 55deg
close: 18deg
hydraulic lash adjusters
Ignition: electronic - Magneti Marelli Nanoplex MED 210A - cut off at 6000rpm
timing: 10+/-2 deg at 875rpm
idle 857+/-25 rpm
CO 1.0 +/-0.5%
Carb: FOS 30 S2HX (some Polish carb - probably made on Weber license)
Clutch 160mm/112mm diameter (outer/inner)
Gear ratios:
1: 39/12
2: 41/20
3: 42/32
4: 34/39
Final: 39/9
All gears are synchronised! But before you get excited - the gearbox swap is not straight forward.
I have more data but I have to work out how to print it to pdf first before I post it.
Hope that helps,
Mali
oh.. one more thing - there were 2 versions of CC700 as newer ones had a cat (I think), I've got data for both anyway
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Good info MaLi, Thanks for helping out [-/
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I have updated the spreadsheet to reflect the information from MaLi, and also added a new column for the Catalysed engine and highlighted in orange a new section for Valve Actuation. MaLi, what did you mean by Hydraulic Lash Adjustment - Hydraulic Valve Lifters?. Thanks
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pdf995 has messed up my printer setup so there will be no pdf...
Instead I took some screenshots:
http://img23.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=cc7008.jpg <-- unfortunately this is in Polish
By hydraulic valve lash adjuster I mean e.g. this:
http://www.fag.com/content.fag.de/en/branches/automotive/engine_systems/product_range/mot3200/mot3210/mot3213/mot3213.jsp
tcosy - could you email me the excel sheet - I would be easier for me to fill in the missing bits of info. I'll give you mMy email on pm
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OOps, Rookie error, i didn't raelise that PM was Personnel Message and not Post Meridian
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I filled in the info I had - still few bits missing but most of it is there. I anyone could remind me how to post a picture that would be great.
Cheers,
Mali
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MaLi, you need to save it as a small image under 72kb, the method i used was at 75%, hit print screen button, open Microsoft paint, select edit-paste. Save as a .png file and then use tha additional options at foot of page to add the image. Could you mail the excel back to me for my records thanks
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I've already emailed you back - must be my Polish email address being caught by spam filters or so. I will try to resend it from different email.
Picture should work now:
EDIT: email resend - let me know if you haven't got it
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Eklipze3k did you receive a response from clubcento, ref the Engine spec on the cc700? Mali has provided some very useful data but we still have a number of blanks, it would be great if we could get these filled in too.
In addition do we have a contact for cc700 tuning, so that i can see the potential for this engine and where the restrictions are. I watched the Video links, the tuned cc700 exhausts sounded rather meaty for a 2 pot engine.
I don't want to get too optimistic but it feels like the BIS engine has the potential for nearly 40bhp in road tune, running a cc700 head, electronic ignition, a performance exhaust, relocated (cold Air) performance Air Filter, the info I would still like is the Valve lift for a std and tuned cc700, the jetting of a tuned cc700 carb and power/torque curves if possible.
Stage 2, as above but with single point injection
Stage 3, as stage 1 but with modified Cam timing/lift and Multipoint Injection
Cheers All
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sorry guys, not been on for a while, I have the fuel injected BIS of which Stuey spoke.......
Before we get carried away, we are developing fuel injection for utility engines (Ride on mowers etc) and low cost motorcycles up to about 250cc. The target is to deliver the emissions benefits of fuel injection but at about half the normal cost. I wanted to run the system on a car just to see what would happen, and that's why I bought the bis. I installed a system which had been prototyped on a 22hp ride on mower engine.
I haven't really measured the performance, but I would say it did improve the low and mid range response, but not much change at the top end because the throttle bore I am using is quite small. In any case, because the system was intended for a 22hp engine, I don't have much spare fuel delivery capability even if I tune it more.
Owing to an error on my part, a washer went through the engine, so I rebuilt it and at the same time skimmed the head to take the compression to about 9.3:1. This I think has improved the torque further, although it has some detonation risk now.
My engine management system has the ability to control the ignition timing, I haven't got round to setting it up but I think compression ratio increase plus mapped ignition will help all round. I would suggest looking at the megasquirt system (our controller is not available for sale at the moment and is specific to our injector design (still prototype only).
I thought about porting the head a bit but again, didn't bother because I don't have more fuel delivery to match.
Some people have suggested that the transmission strenght could be an issue. The engine is only 2 cylinder so although the torque is low, the peak torque within the cycle may be quite high. In dyno testing single cylinder utility engines we have often destroyed drive couplings that were supposedly much stronger than the engine needed, but the thinking didn't account for it all coming from one big thump instead of 4 little ones.
I haven't done much on the BIS recently because I had to complete the annual restoration of my cinq sporting for the MOT, and now have some work to do on my Lotus, but I just got hold of some new wheels to put on the BIS so it might get out and about again - the steel wheels had corrosion/ leak issues.
that's it for now ........
Gav
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that makes for interesting reading i look forward to more posts .
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couple more things. I will also put some pics up at some point.
there are two main approaches to fuel injection (not including direct injection which would need a comprehensive mod to the cylinder head and likely isn't possible).
one is to position the injectors so they have line of sight to the back of the inlet valve, then you inject while the valve is closed and the fuel warms up on the back of the valve so that when it opens it gets drawn in, and is atomised by the heat and the air inflow.
the other way is to try to atomise the fuel as it goes into the moving airflow, i.e. when the valve is open and the engine is drawing air. this is what a carburettor effectively does and our system to some extent reproduces this effect but with electronic metering. the cinquecento system (i think, probably) may work in the same way - I have a cinq sporting which has a single injector in the throttle body which injects fuel into the airstream.
if you can make a new inlet manifold, or modify the existing one, to take a pair of injectors that have line of sight to the inlet valves, or at least can be sure that all the fuel from one injector goes down one port and the fuel from the other goes to the other port, then probably you could make it work that way. if not, and I suspect that to be the case, especially when you consider the protruding head nuts in their pockets which will trap fuel and randomly release it, then the singlepoint method is probably better.
so probably you want to rob the bits from a singlepoint car like the cinq. that is what the polish person had done, basically using the throttle body and injector.
he put the lambda sensor in the back of the silencer, I have also done this, although I am not running closed loop control at the moment, but I do have a wideband lambda sensor to give air:fuel ratio information for setting up.
more on all this later, time to help put the children away....
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I put a couple of photos on facebook, there is a fiat 126 group on there as well.
http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=639571666&ref=nf
http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/group.php?gid=4964457269&ref=mf
not sure if you can link to facebook like that, but if you go on there and search the groups for fiat 126, it should work.