Author Topic: Yet another engine swap thread(Project Fubaru)update 17/7/09  (Read 3249 times)

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Maddog

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Right, I actually sold "Wee Jobby 2" to my friend a while ago, he came with me when I bought it and I think he was under the misunderstanding that he was going to be the purchaser, but I whipped out the cash first, all's fair with women and cars :lol:, he used it until the MOT ran out and it has been resting against the hedge growing orange crust since then.

 I.ve been a bit bored of late with no projects on the go, and popping back onto this forum has given me some inspiration,  so its time to see what can be done with it. Unfortunately some little 500 has been hanging about eyeing up its engine so, providing that after the underside is blasted there is something left to weld too, then some new motivation will be getting forced manfully up its rear end. KY jelly may be required. ;D

Firstly, the ethos of this little project is,

 Stock look, the plastics have been removed already but apart from restoring rusty bits, filling holes and some chrome bumpers and mirrors, the car will externaly remain stock looking.

 minimum cost, I've always found building low buck machines to be more fun than bolting a load of custom machined or specialist supplied parts together, my first cossie eater vespa cost less than £200 and I used to ride round for hours just looking for M3's and the like to embarass from the lights. So a budget of £750 has been set, I will be trying my hardest to keep within this as the car originally cost £100 plus I guess another £150 spent on it, new gearbox, lights etc. so total cost will be £1000, a nice round figure(the turbos on my GTO cost more than this alone)

Off the shelf parts, where possible everything should be rebuildable from easily obtainable parts, no point building something using an obscure part just because you've got one, break it and your stuffed.


Ok, the following combos are currently under consideration, bike power is out, too much custom machining/cost/reverse gear headaches. this car wil be remaining a 4/5 seater. turn the key and drive by anybody.

Fiat 1242cc from punto, 60/75/85BHP options, onto stock gearbox, this is the simplest option but the weak link is the box, requires, adaptor plate which I can make myself, cinq flywheel machined to use cinq clutch with custom spigot bush, radiator fitted up front or possibly get away with twin bike rads/electric fans in the rear. fuel injected so requires fannying about with the odd shaped tank to fit pump/return. fitting ecu and loom.

Subaru EA82 1781cc, 80bhp but lots more torque than fiat FIRE engine, using stock box, idea shamelessly stolen from Alistair on retro500.com, this engine was clearly made to fit 500/126, Subaru just didn't know it or they would have sold them to fiat. carburated flat 4, very lightweight, see  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aMXChEQ7DY&NR=1  adaptor plate and rads same as 1242. not sure about flywheel/clutch/starter arrangement

 Nigel(Hudsonhenry), if you could find out more info on what flywheel/clutch arrangement/ mods Alistair used to do this it would be most helpful

However, finding an EA82 near to me is easier said than done, rocking horse poo springs to mind,  anybody fancy pulling this one and strapping it to a pallet for me,  ;D

 
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=290324183575

I've also asked the code for this one as it may not be 1300

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/subaru-flat-four-engine-unit-possibly-justy-ideal-trike_W0QQitemZ150351516744QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item2301a61448&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A2|66%3A2|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A6|294%3A50

Next stage is a VW box swap from T25, 4 or 5 speed, this is pretty straightforward but woyld require some enlargement of the tunnel, should still be able to get 2 in the back though, unfortunately all the VDubbers want these so going rate is £2-300.plus the drive shafts
 can someone post a link to where I can source CV adaptors for the Fiat hubs as I cant seem to google them up,

the VW box opens up the possibilty of using much more power,

first option is a 1600 VW, simple, bolts straight on, aircooled, carburated, however, not cheap to buy, probably £400+ for a decent complete engine and expensive to tune in the future.

Subaru EA82 again, using machined VW clutch/flywheel/spacer and VW starter, simple, reliable but box could take much more power.

Subaru EJ series engine, 1.6-2.0 SOHC, could pick up a MOT failure/smashed legacy/impreza pretty cheap, adaptor plate/machined VW flywheel/clutch/starter been done by plenty VDubbers so know it would work, but will it fit under stock bodywork? , going to measure one up shortly. not sure I'f I could squeeze this plus VW box plus driveshafts out of the budget. Early EJ series came with carb so this would be easiest option If I can find one.


of course this could be academic if the 126 turns to latticework after blasting, a cheap BIS might be required :D

Richie

« Last Edit: July 17, 2009, 01:29:21 AM by Maddog »

fightingtorque

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Re: Yet another engine swap thread
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2009, 11:01:30 PM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_K75

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BMW-K75-K-75-RT-90-Engine-Assembly_W0QQitemZ120409373212QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Motorcycle_Parts?hash=item1c08f53a1c&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C66%3A2%7C39%3A1%7C72%3A1689%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

As far as I can see, it's a 3 cylinder in line , layed down flat, looks like the cylinders are to the same side as the 126 BIS so potentially a BIS rad would sit next to it.

There is also a 4 cyl version (if the length is not a problem)

I would imagine this would generate a good chunk more power than a 126 engine (75bhp) but probably not too much more torque and because it has more cylinders the individual torque spikes per combustion event shouldn't be too bad, so it might be poss to adapt it to the 126 box without killing it.

This came from an idea Stuey had posted elsewhere about a BMW twin, but when I ebayed BMW bike motors, this is what I found.

Gav

roobeh

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Re: Yet another engine swap thread
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2009, 01:33:11 AM »
« Last Edit: July 03, 2009, 01:34:43 AM by roobeh »

Maddog

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Re: Yet another engine swap thread
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2009, 07:00:08 PM »
Quote
if you're looking for a scooby engine then this is on ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Sub...|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A50

you'll even get a spare. (which i'd be willing to take of your hands)

turns out these Sub pick ups have a bit of a folowing and comand decent prices, also parts availability isnt the best and this one is nearly 600 mile round trip for me.

pretty sure it will either be FIRE 1242 or Sub EJ, I'm going to look at a impreza at the weekend.

also looking for an imp gearbox, they are very strong and have a good change, small enough to fit between swingarm mounts. I think it would be ok with the impreza engine, and there are loads of uprated bits avaiable ftom imp tuners if required.

the T25 box is wider and I think itwould need some serious modding of the swingarm mounting points to get it to fit.

not much progress,

found it cowering at the back of a container,





gave its undergunders a quick feel and its more solid than I thought it would be, needs outer sills and a bit on the rear wheelarch. has to wait on a boat and the 500 getting stuff done first.


picked up these on ebay, was looking for something retro, good quality and will be pretty light being 100+, should polish/paint up ok

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140329359301&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT&salenotsupported


kinda starting at the wrong end but got some hub carriers off a panda, so will have proper cv joints and discs on the rear whatever engine/box It ends up with

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250452505787&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT&salenotsupported

« Last Edit: July 03, 2009, 07:04:57 PM by Maddog »

fightingtorque

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Re: Yet another engine swap thread
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2009, 10:36:47 PM »
On the imp gearbox.... strong?  Stronger than the 126 I am sure, but I was into Imps 20 years ago and people were getting worried about availability of good used transaxles back then, and some people were already finding them marginal with tuned 998 & 1040cc engines.  The solution was a Hewland box but that was expensive.

Gav

fightingtorque

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Re: Yet another engine swap thread
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2009, 10:38:12 PM »
Good skills on the wheels, 30 quid = bargain.

dajwid

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Re: Yet another engine swap thread
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2009, 09:37:29 PM »
I see you plan a lot of jiggery pokery as the wheels are 14".

I hope this one sees completion, so many plans recently on the forum.





Maddog

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Re: Yet another engine swap thread
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2009, 01:52:55 AM »
Quote
On the imp gearbox.... strong?  Stronger than the 126 I am sure, but I was into Imps 20 years ago and people were getting worried about availability of good used transaxles back then, and some people were already finding them marginal with tuned 998 & 1040cc engines.

yep more than 170bhp 150il/ft maybe stretching a stock imp box, seems to be the cases that fail, the internals are known good well past this,  especially with Jack Knight straight cut, plenty of 150-180 turbo imps, obviously not the same torque as a 2.0. still researching whats available, trouble seems to be the gearing is so low.


Quote
I see you plan a lot of jiggery pokery as the wheels are 14".

I hope this one sees completion, so many plans recently on the forum.

spotted them, liked them, just the retro style I was looking for, tyres will be either 175/50 or 185/50 or 185/55, the 175/50 are only 1/2 inch larger diameter than stock 145/80/12, whilst 185/55 are 1.6 inch taller, I'll try em on for size and see, they're only 5.5j with et27 so shouldnt stick out much if my measures are correct. 185/55 on back would help with any low geared box. if they need too much stretching of the arches then they'll be passed on to a friend.

14s also give the option of larger discs on the front should they be reqd in the future.


Nowt on the car is getting done at moment except for body repair, MOT, wheels & front brakes, until I have an engine and box mated together, with working clutch, plonked on the workshop floor. I'm too long in the tooth to go hacking good rides apart only to find I cant get a part, or my idea hasnt work out like I thought it should.

I do have a third option on the box, but not sure I want to post it up in case someone else thinks, thats a good idea, and snaps up a box with my name on it >:(.

All critisism is gratefully received, constructive or otherwise.

Rusty's Uncle

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Re: Yet another engine swap thread
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2009, 06:59:42 AM »
The guy that I bought the 800ccs 126 engine from last week had fitted large grooved Alfa discs & brakes on one of his Cinquecentos & I think that was with 14" alloys. Same 98mm pcd on the discs as the 126  & a slightly larger adaptor plate needed.

fightingtorque

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Re: Yet another engine swap thread
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2009, 11:18:27 PM »
Ther primary upgrade path for the cinq people is punto GT discs and calipers, needs 14 inch wheels and not all 14 inch wheels will go over them at that.

Maddog

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Re: Yet another engine swap thread(Project Fubaru)update 17/7/09
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2009, 01:59:58 AM »
no actual work has been done other than plenty of web searching/brain wheels turning, and to write a cheque for the new gearbox, should have it next week.

heres a pic of one, so whos gonna be first to guess what its from?



hope it fits, if it doesnt then I'll just have to make it.

this box should be good for at least 170bhp, so is fine for my purpose, it lets me go for the engine I really want, an EJ series Subaru. options are 1.8, 2.0, 2.2 and 2.5. either single or twin overheaf cams.
 The 2.5 with twin overhead cam heads is going to be very tight on space so best option is probably, 2.0 or 2.2 with single cam at 29-30inch wide, 125 or 140ish bhp.

intention is to use Subaru flywheel and starter, subaru pressure plate and 200-220mm clutch, if I can find one to match the splines on box. my local BSL can supply a spigot bearing in pretty much any size.
 I'll need to wait until I have the clutch before determining what thickness of adaptor plate I need, 8-12mm will need to be made in steel, 12mm+ can be alloy.

 

hudsonhenry

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Re: Yet another engine swap thread(Project Fubaru)update 17/7/09
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2009, 09:16:05 AM »
Mk 1 Renault 5, I have one of these to fit to my car at some point so I'm interested to see how you get on.

Nigel
http://www.retro500.com the site dedicated to modified Fiat 500's

Darrell

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Re: Yet another engine swap thread(Project Fubaru)update 17/7/09
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2009, 12:38:57 AM »
Does it go the right way or can you turn the diff around?
'84 aircooled 126 & 500F still in kit form
Not the only African in the village :)

stuey

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Re: Yet another engine swap thread(Project Fubaru)update 17/7/09
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2009, 03:58:43 AM »
lotus? (or renault?)
one resprayed and another arrives- double trouble BIS style!!

Maddog

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Re: Yet another engine swap thread(Project Fubaru)update 17/7/09
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2009, 05:55:53 PM »
Quote from: Hudsonhenry
Mk 1 Renault 5, I have one of these to fit to my car at some point so I'm interested to see how you get on.

you kept that one quiet Nigel, yep its a Gordini turbo 5 speed,

Quote from: Darrell
Does it go the right way or can you turn the diff around?

mk1 renault 5 has the engine inline, fitted behind the gearbox, so drives the correct way.


I don't have the box yet to measure the spline myself, but according to data from a clutch supplier, the input shaft is 17.5mm with 20 splines,  this is a really small shaft, the biggest clutch I can find to fit is off a renault traffic 1.4i at 190mm. nowhere near big enough to be used with the subaru flywheel.

so most likely I will go with the old hot rodders method of having the R5GT flywheel machined/drilled to fit the Subaru crank, probably with a spacer. simple but will leave me with the stock R5GT clutch and starter motor which could cause :cry:, and spacing the flywheel away from the crank is pretty bad practice, ,

or, and this is prety unlikely but, depending on the deign of the R5GT input shaft and input bearing outside diameter, I may be able to have a larger 22 or 24mm input shaft made up to take a subaru clutch.

As for other bits, the driveshafts have gone up in price since I last got a quote, £190 plus the cv joints.
 I have discs and calipers all round from a punto HGT,  found an unused walbro 255lph in my cupboar d :),  and I should really be looking for some uprated springs and shocks for the back, I'm guessing at about an extra 60-75kg will be hanging out over the back wheels so they really are required.

  does anybody have a spare 126 rear shocky sitting that they cam measure the diameter of the lower mounting hole, and the overall length, compressed and open?
front too would be good, kind of difficult for me to do whilst they are still on the car.

cheers,  Richie







 

 
« Last Edit: July 21, 2009, 02:18:33 AM by Maddog »

 

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