Author Topic: Can 126's use the new E10 fuel next year?  (Read 470 times)

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andyzeetec

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Can 126's use the new E10 fuel next year?
« on: June 18, 2020, 01:40:23 PM »
Quoted..

If they can't... Drivers of older, incompatible cars may have to shell out for more expensive fuel, since forecourts will likely only offer E5 as a premium option.

E10 is a biofuel made up of 90% regular unleaded and 10% ethanol – hence the E10 name.

Standard unleaded fuel contains up to 5% ethanol and can be used in any petrol-engined car without problems or the need for modification.

The Federation of British Historic Vehicle Clubs (FBHVC) says E10 “may cause some flexible fuel hoses, seals, gaskets, plastics and certain metals critical to the fuel system to corrode or degrade. This may cause damage to fuel pumps, carburettors, seals on injectors, pressure regulators and fuel tanks that are not resistant to ethanol. The bioethanol may also dislodge particles on older fuel systems, causing blockages.”

Petrol cars made since 2011 must be E10-compatible, but the DfT estimates 700,000 vehicles are not.

Xylaquin

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Re: Can 126's use the new E10 fuel next year?
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2020, 09:43:41 PM »
Before I moved I always used super unleaded anyway, since it's the correct RON for these engines (plus the added bonus of detergents). However even super unleaded will only remain E5 for another few years I hear.

Proposed solutions would be:
- Use an ethanol stabiliser additive to mitigate the effects
- make alterations to the engine and fuel system
- convert to electric
- wing it and just use E10

I guess the alterations would involve:
- Upgrade the fuel lines to SAE R9 grade that isn't affected by ethanol
- I'm not sure what the fuel pump's membrane is made of, but that's a consideration
- Apparently ethanol eats carb float welding, I wonder if any 126 floats are "weldless"

andyzeetec

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Re: Can 126's use the new E10 fuel next year?
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2020, 10:33:20 PM »
Additive sounds a good solution as not all super unleaded fuel is ethanol free and as you say wont be in the future.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/181665585806



Xylaquin

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Re: Can 126's use the new E10 fuel next year?
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2020, 11:57:38 PM »
Not quite, stabilisers only work to an extent.

ProjectFarm tested out this very brand of stabiliser...
« Last Edit: June 18, 2020, 11:59:41 PM by Xylaquin »

ChrisRLewis

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Re: Can 126's use the new E10 fuel next year?
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2020, 09:56:28 AM »
This is worrying and after reading up on this it not only affects classic cars but most cars built before 2002.

However, you maybe safe for another five years if you change to super unleaded petrol ."Classic and performance car owners who buy super unleaded higher octane petrol will not immediately be affected, as this is set to remain at the E5 mix for five more years."

andyzeetec

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Re: Can 126's use the new E10 fuel next year?
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2020, 11:37:34 PM »
Looks like if its Ethanol free fuel your after; Esso is the only one doing it currently. I wasn't aware of the issues with ethanol, but next fill will be at Esso. However, as Chris stated e5 mix will be around for 5years as super unleaded.

From Esso website..
There is currently no requirement for renewable fuel (such as ethanol) to be present in super unleaded (97 grade petrol).

Esso super unleaded petrol (Synergy Supreme+ Unleaded 97) is ethanol free (except in Devon, Cornwall, the Teesside area and Scotland). We would therefore advise anyone who has concerns about the presence of ethanol in petrol to use Synergy Supreme+ – providing they do not fill up in Devon or Cornwall, the Teesside area or Scotland.

Our Synergy Fuels:
Diesel
Supreme+ Diesel
Unleaded
Supreme+ Unleaded


I read an article that says pumps should be Marked E0, E5 or E10 to show ethanol content but cant say I have ever noticed it.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2020, 09:17:38 AM by andyzeetec »

Xylaquin

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Re: Can 126's use the new E10 fuel next year?
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2020, 01:21:32 AM »
E5 is the current norm, in all likelihood you've probably already been putting ethanol in your 126 half the time if you've been using standard unleaded. It's a legal requirement in the UK that pumps with ethanol content show the E rating at the pump. So next time you swing by a fuel station, look for the E5 badge. I've generally found that they're not on the nozzle itself but the label/signage next to where you "dock" the nozzle, or next to the BS numbers.

We'll need to come up with a solution (no pun intended) to this though... what do we do after those five years runs out.

I've heard that the additives would be sufficient for daily drivers, where the E10 fuel isn't sitting about collecting moisture and is actually passing through the fuel system. But surely moving/regular exposure is still exposure?

Furthermore ethanol is less energy dense, which means you need more of it coming through the carb to achieve the same thing. The buoyancy of the float is affected too. Without adjustment, you'll be running lean AND getting less mpg. Constantly running lean isn't good for the engine. To compensate, you'd adjust the float level and increase the jet apeture, but I still don't know how the metal body of the carb can be protected from attack.

ChrisRLewis

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Re: Can 126's use the new E10 fuel next year?
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2020, 06:30:00 AM »
Perhaps the fitting of a Water Separating Fuel Filter will help the solution?


Xylaquin

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Re: Can 126's use the new E10 fuel next year?
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2020, 12:37:18 PM »
is it just the water (that the ethanol attracts) that does the damage... or does ethanol, even without water, pose a threat in itself? That's what I'm not clear on.

andyzeetec

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Re: Can 126's use the new E10 fuel next year?
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2020, 02:39:04 PM »
is it just the water (that the ethanol attracts) that does the damage... or does ethanol, even without water, pose a threat in itself? That's what I'm not clear on.

Quoted info..  :-

"ethanol Ethanol acts as a solvent in older engines and can dissolve old gum and varnish deposits from the gas tank and fuel lines. These deposits can then clog the very small orifices in the carburetor."

"ethanol itself is non-corrosive but it does absorb water, which creates a corrosive mix, especially when it drops out of suspension"

"Aluminum is susceptible to rapid corrosion rates in dry ethanol blended fuels. Water concentration and temperature were found to be the principal drivers. Higher ethanol concentrations result in faster corrosion rates of aluminum alloys. Galvanic corrosion did not appear to play a factor in the corrosion mechanism"

https://www.onallcylinders.com/2014/10/29/ethanol-effect-understanding-ethanol-can-protect-classic-ride/


alastairq

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Re: Can 126's use the new E10 fuel next year?
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2020, 02:13:16 PM »
If one gets a drop of rainwater inside the fuel tank, it attracts the ethanol out of the fuel. This mix becomes very acidic, and, since petrol floats on top of water, the aicdc droplets are trapped at the bottom of tanks, or float chambers. They then eat away at the steel or alloy.  Answer is , to be very careful not to get water in the fuel tank.
It appears there is much hypothesis about the effects of ethanol on old technology engines.
However, Manchester University undertook a series of thorough tests, using a very old technology engine as a guinea pig [MG XPAG, to be precise].
The results are quite surprising.
These can be found, in depth, in the following publication [and is supported by the FBHVC].
https://www.veloce.co.uk/store/Classic-Engines-Modern-Fuel-The-Problems-the-Solutions-p151478624

This book can be found cheaper in the usual sources.
It does not purport to be a holier-than-thou production, but the presentation of the results of the tests, in an understandable format...with one or two suggestions, which are not claimed to work in every instance.

Regarding the degradation of fuel systems apparently by ethanol [but some other of the additives may well be culprits as well?].....the point is made that, if one is running around in one's ''classic'' still with the original rubber hoses, gaskets, etc..then isn't it  really about time one replaced all these??

For some time now, rubber {?} hoses, etc have been ethanol-proof anyway. {Unless buying cheaply off tinternet?}

The one surprising outcome of these tests was, ethanol actually improves the running of old technology engines.
For sure, ethanol is oxygen-rich, therefore will tend to make older engines run slightly weak.....if an issue, then 50 quid on a rolling road will show how much the main jets need to be drilled out?  However, because of an engine-running issue known as 'cyclic variability'....which, on old technology engines actually creates much hotter exhaust gases,using as we must, today's petrol......[which is totally different in composition to petrol sold in the 70's and 80's!].........then, because the addition of ethanol actually reduces the adverse effects of cyclic variability, engines may well run cooler.

Evidence Of the improvement in running offered by ethanol, is also present to any really old fahrt drives, who would have been running around in the 1950's and 1960's.......Cleveland Discol, anybody??????

Today's petrol doesn't have any adverse effect on modern engine designs simply because of the computerised engine management systems commonly employed..these compensate accordingly.

Anyhow...don't necessarily believe urban myth regarding ethanol.......get the book, study the results, you may be surprised......and keep rainwater out of the fuel system!!

 

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