Author Topic: Small fat tyres?  (Read 322 times)

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NathanMcM

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Small fat tyres?
« on: April 20, 2017, 08:49:18 PM »
Soon to buying some new wheels but unsure on if they'll rub and what size of tyre to get.
Looking at 13x5 or 13x5.5 but unsure which would be less hassall with rubbbing issues.
What size of tyres would be best for the small and fat look without rubbing?
Cheers in advance!
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Gadge

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Re: Small fat tyres?
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2017, 06:17:33 AM »
You'll be fine with either of those sizes. I have 6.5 inches on mine at the moment with no rubbing issues but I do have spacers fitted as the offset was out but that's probably an issue with the wheels themselves rather than the width of them.
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wtf

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Re: Small fat tyres?
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2017, 09:18:33 AM »
What do you have for now? Regular standard 12" wheel? So rims would be 12" and 4" width ( http://allegro.pl/oryginalna-felga-stalowa-kolo-fiat-126p-maluch-12-i6619935775.html ), along with tyres 135/80 R12.

I wrote (in french) an article about changing wheels https://fiat126maluch.wordpress.com/2016/01/24/changement-de-jantes-et-pneus-de-12-vers-13/  including a table of possible tyres width depending on rim width.

I am not sure what Gadge says about 6.5 inches rims: if we are really talking about rim width, it would mean tyres width from 185 to 205, quite impossible for a fiat 126 with 13" wheels; for the record, basic Peugeot 407 16" rims are 6.5" width.

In my case, I went for cinquecento rims, with are 13" 4.5" width (along with 145/70R13 tyres). That is larger than original but would not qualify as "small fat tyres".
My friend got the alloy as visible there https://fiat126maluch.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/gopr0438.jpg  and, as far I remember, it is 13" 5" (155 tyre width), that is more like it.
You can often find 13" 5" as alloy rims for 126 (as http://allegro.pl/felgi-aluminiowe-fiat-126p-maluch-i6788013601.html ).

I would say 13" 5" is an acceptable option. But you are really on the limit with 5" width already, so, unless you want to change other parts, add spacers etc, I would not push it beyond 5", at least with 13" rims.

Once again, if you got rims 5.5" width, it means that you'll have minimum (legally) 165 tyres width, which is unlikely to fit a 126 with 13" wheels without any other change (and unlikely not to alter overall car behavior).

For the record, historical "small fat" looking tyres on fiat 126 were done on 12" rims that were modified, altered, welded, so they would have an overlarge non standard width. If you have 13" rims, it obviously won't ever qualify as "small" for a car the size of a 126.

 
 
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 09:26:20 AM by wtf »

Gadge

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Re: Small fat tyres?
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2017, 04:53:07 PM »
WTF I think you need to re write your article because I'm not sure if you know what you are talking about  ::) 6.5 inches is 165mm. 5.5 inch is 140mm. so quite possible to fit a 165 size tyre. I re-measured my wheel and it is actually 6 inches wide (153mm) so here are my 6 inch wheels



And here is the same wheel with a 165 (6.5inch) tyre fitted



And here are the same wheels fitted to the car



165/55/13 tyres will fit without any problems and i believe 175 will fit with the correct spacing if you want to go serious.

I will also point out that cinquecento 165/55/13 wheels and tyres are a very popular modification and has been successfully tried many times. I also have seicento steel wheels that are also 4.5 inches and used 145/60/13 tyres which were a good balance as the profile was slightly smaller that the 145/70 and closer to the original 135/70 ratio.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 05:05:17 PM by Gadge »
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wtf

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Re: Small fat tyres?
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2017, 08:15:02 PM »
WTF I think you need to re write your article because I'm not sure if you know what you are talking about  ::) 6.5 inches is 165mm. 5.5 inch is 140mm. so quite possible to fit a 165 size tyre. I re-measured my wheel and it is actually 6 inches wide (153mm) so here are my 6 inch wheels

Yeah, ahem, I do not tend to agree!  ;D

First, there is no such concept as a fixed tyre width depending on the rim width.  What is there is a list of tyre width that can match any given rim width, whether it actually is road legal or just actually working. Hence the table provided in the article.

As example, for a 6" width rim, you can fit from 175 to 205 to be perfectly legal, up to 225 is tolerated. And you can manage to fit 165 but that is neither legal or tolerated - that is considered as security issue.

I am not telling you not to fit 165/whatever R13 tyres to some 6" width rim; but clearly that cannot be seriously recommended willy nilly.

And on your first message, you said you had 6.5". Ok now I understand you meant tyre width: but tyre are never sold according to width mesured in inches but in milimeters, only the rims are in inches. Hence my statement, because 6.5" is not even supposed to be possible with 165/...

And I do have a clue about how large is actually a 6.5: I sold some alloy I had on my 407, here the archived page: https://www.olx.pl/oferta/felgi-z-oponami-peugeot-407-16-5x108-6-5jx16-et44-4szt-CID5-IDjrmVY.html
Yeah, it was standard fit with 205/60 R16. Good luck fitting a 165/... there

Anyway, NathanMcM was mentioning 5" to 5.5" width rims: I was recommending not to go beyond 5" unless he plans to modify others things (spacers, etc).
The alloy rims my friend has, as said in my previous post, are something like 5" with 155/... tyres and it just works to the limit. So anything beyond is unlikely to be a good match with modifications.
In your case, you only have 165/... tyres and you have spacers and stuff. And you have, if you really have 6" width rims, an illegal mount (and considered dangerous), while, normally, the only legal rims to have 165/... tyres are 5" and 5.5" width.

To sum up, including your input, NathanMcM was looking at 5" and 5.5". Actually, 5" should not be a problem. 5.5" minimum is 165/... so will likely already require spacers/etc/modifications.
But if you really want the classic small fat tyre look, you should consider 12" height rims enlarged (which I have seen done in Poland, I do not know in England).




 

wtf

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Re: Small fat tyres?
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2017, 08:29:03 PM »
I will also point out that cinquecento 165/55/13 wheels and tyres are a very popular modification and has been successfully tried many times. I also have seicento steel wheels that are also 4.5 inches and used 145/60/13 tyres which were a good balance as the profile was slightly smaller that the 145/70 and closer to the original 135/70 ratio.

I am quite puzzled by your advices.

Original ratio for a 126 is 135/80 R12.
Original ratio for a 126 Bis 135/70 R13.

Both ratio are similar, you cannot get a closer match by switching from 12" to 13". http://www.tire-size-calculator.info/index.html?&1tw=135&1ar=80&1dia=12&1ww=4&2tw=135&2ar=70&2dia=13&2ww=4.5

On the other end, what is a wrong match for this ratio is the 145/60 R13 you suggested. Well, it can be done. But, once again, illegal, should not pass any road worthiness test in Europe (and probably America). Because there is a rule that difference in diameter mounted should not exceed +/- 3% from the original mount.  Unfortunately, 145/60 R13 is -3,2% - while 145/70 R13 (the one I am using) is only +2,4%.

Gadge, you should put a warning, if anything you suggest is actually illegal  ;D

wtf

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Re: Small fat tyres?
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2017, 08:58:47 PM »
Big news!

I was puzzled by the illegal mount of Gadge. If even Cromodora rims (abarth) are only 5" width, http://www.ebay.com/itm/CROMODORA-CD91-4x98-Wheels-Fiat-X1-9-124-127-128-Berlina-500-600-850-ABARTH-A112-/122352027703 I wondered where Gadge wheels came from.

On the picture, we can see Alfa Romeo. And it is. Sold there for instance https://www.olx.pt/anuncio/jantes-alfa-romeo-13-bwa-campanatura-IDuDDkN.html
But most pictures miss the real information: the damned rim width. Well, this dirty one https://www.olx.pt/anuncio/jantes-bwa-campanatura-13-IDzDcNH.html got it.

We can clearly read 5.5 J x 13.

Ok, so Gadge, the good news is that your mount is perfectly legal.

The bad news, is that you suggested someone to buy 6.5" width rims for a fiat 126,  then suggested 6" with 165/55 R13. The first option is quite unlikely to work (Peugeot 407 default alloy wheels, for the record). The second, neither likely to work, is even dangerous if it did.

Well, maybe you are "not sure if you know what you are talking about" but, well... hum... Do you?

Anyway, back to square 1: 5" should work. 5.5" should work with modifications. Beyond, unlikely.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 09:07:43 PM by wtf »

NathanMcM

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Re: Small fat tyres?
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2017, 03:58:08 AM »
You'll be fine with either of those sizes. I have 6.5 inches on mine at the moment with no rubbing issues but I do have spacers fitted as the offset was out but that's probably an issue with the wheels themselves rather than the width of them.

Thinking 13x5.5 but unsure on what size of tyre to get to get the small fat look 😂
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Robin126

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Re: Small fat tyres?
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2017, 08:37:49 AM »
Friend of mine is running 5,5 with 175/50 R13..

Gadge

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Re: Small fat tyres?
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2017, 09:18:35 AM »
WTF you have completely confused what should have been a simple question about tyre size with useless information about legality and saftey. I am baffled where you are getting this legal information about my particular car from and even more baffled at your back tracking about "excepted width". You have written an article but have you actually tried fitting a 165 tyre to a 126 before? I have and many other have too - quite saftey as well. We are dealing with facts against a theory here so I'll start again with my cromodoras that I have fitted and try to clear some confusion.

My cromodora alloys are SIX INCHES WIDE that is from lip to lip (total width) the 5.5 inches that you are trying to catch me out on is the internal rim size that the tyre sits in. The fact that it say Alfa Romeo is irrelevant. The reason I have spacers is because they have a different offset than the 126 wheels and need spacers to compensate but many other alloys/wheels are avalible with the correct offset.

The original question that NathanMcM asked was if a 13x5 inch wheel or a 13x5.5 inch wheel would fit and what size tyres would fit without rubbing. There was no talk whatsoever about using a 12 inch wheel. Now because I didn't know if Nathan was talking about a wheel that is 5.5 inches in total or a wheel with an internal size of 5.5 inches I went with the total width answer of 6 inches (ignore the 6.5 as I was wrong) as it covers the whole size of the rim seen as though what Nathan is trying to find out is if a 5/5.5 inch wheel will rub I thought this to be the best answer. So I have NOT misinformed anyone here.

Now about legality because I'm getting really confused here. My car is NOT ILEGAL. You are not an expert in th UK laws regarding car road worthiness and are NOT in a position to give seemingly "expert" knoledge on the subject only opinions. My car passes its annual MOT every time and will in the future with these wheels fitted. They are well within the limits of the wheel arch and each axle has the same size fitted. Please do not tell me my car is ILEGAL again. Fitting wider than standard wheels is a perfectly exceptable practice and the sizes that we are talking about are perfectly safe. You are just scaremongering for no reason if you are saying that a 5 inch wheel is "on the limit".

So now I shall go back to square 1. Nathan if you are haven't lost the will to live yet yes you can fit a 5 inch wheel or a 5.5 inch if you wish - that's total rim size by the way. So if your rim says 5.5j then you have a 6 inch rim and on that 6 inch rim you can fit up to a 165/55/13 without any problems. Even a 175 has been tried before. You can also fit 155/60/13. 145/60/13 is a good size (if a little pricey) as they don't look as tall as the 145/70s so it gives it a nicer stance and is still wider than the standard 135s that are fitted and if you choose a wheel with the correct offset you will not need any other modifications. It it also quite possible to lower your car on this set up about 30mm and still not suffer any arch rubbing. Take it from a guy who has actually done this with success rather than a guy who writes articles about it.

Unfortunately when you fit lower profile tyres you will inevitably change the aspect ratio which is a small price to pay in fuel consumption but personally it has never bothered me and can never be checked on an MOT anyway but that's entirely up to you :thumbup
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 09:29:55 AM by Gadge »
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Yoshimisumi

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Re: Small fat tyres?
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2017, 09:58:17 AM »
What is the offset/spacer combination you have with your wheels now gadge?


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Gadge

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Re: Small fat tyres?
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2017, 10:05:08 AM »
What is the offset/spacer combination you have with your wheels now gadge?


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I'm not sure what the offset is on these cromodora wheels but I needed to fit 12mm spacers on the rear and 20mm on the front (per side). The front actually didn't cause me any problems - there is quite a lot of room there - it was the rears where it is close. I have a disc brake set up at the front which I think narrows the track a little hence the drastic 20mm spacer to bring it out to match the rear.

Here's a photo taken two days ago

« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 10:10:09 AM by Gadge »
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wtf

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Re: Small fat tyres?
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2017, 10:11:46 AM »
My cromodora alloys are SIX INCHES WIDE that is from lip to lip (total width) the 5.5 inches that you are trying to catch me out on is the internal rim size that the tyre sits in. The fact that it say Alfa Romeo is irrelevant.

Hum. I tried to be polite but apparently it was not clear enough:

The fact that it is written Alfa Romeo was relevant to find exactly which wheels you have - since you are clueless about it, it was necessary.
You do not have Cromodora wheels, check the relevant link, that is some other specific model. That was an example of common alloy on small Fiat.

What you think about your wheel size is completely meaningless. There is only one valid size of wheel width: the one WRITTEN on it. As seen in the picture, and said before: We can clearly read 5.5 J x 13..



Do you know why the manufacter wrote it visibly there? To avoid confused people to try some weird measurement.  To prevent people from doing what you did: telling a guy to buy 6.5" or 6" rims because you made some weird measurement of something sold in shop as 5.5" BECAUSE THAT IS THE MANUFACTURER REFERENCE.

And, to be clear, manufacturer reference is tied ETRTO rim width definition http://www.etrto.org/
It is not something you can reinvent here, on the spot. You can easily document yourself about it: http://www.tyresizecalculator.com/wheels/wheel-markings


The original question that NathanMcM asked was if a 13x5 inch wheel or a 13x5.5 inch wheel would fit and what size tyres would fit without rubbing. There was no talk whatsoever about using a 12 inch wheel. Now because I didn't know if Nathan was talking about a wheel that is 5.5 inches in total or a wheel with an internal size of 5.5 inches

And that should tell you that you have a serious understanding problem: if people wants to buy rims, we talk with MANUFACTURER REFERENCE, not with odd homemade measurement that no one cares about because it is completely irrelevant.
Rims are not sold with Gadge-from-the-forum references but the one the manufacturer wrote.


Now about legality because I'm getting really confused here. My car is NOT ILEGAL. You are not an expert in th UK laws regarding car road worthiness and are NOT in a position to give seemingly "expert" knoledge on the subject only opinions. My car passes its annual MOT every time and will in the future with these wheels fitted. They are well within the limits of the wheel arch and each axle has the same size fitted. Please do not tell me my car is ILEGAL again.

Re-read. As I wrote: "Ok, so Gadge, the good news is that your mount is perfectly legal.". What was not is what you said you had (165/... tyres on a 6" width rim), but I found out later that you were just very confused about how rims width are really measured.

(and you asked why I mentioned 12": because that is the standard mount on 126 except a Bis like yours; so that is evidently the reference ratio except for a Bis - the one that could be checked against in a serious MOT)

So now I shall go back to square 1. Nathan if you are haven't lost the will to live yet yes you can fit a 5 inch wheel or a 5.5 inch if you wish - that's total rim size by the way. So if your rim says 5.5j then you have a 6 inch rim....  and on that 6 inch rim

Haha. That's great: if your rim (meaning: the manufacturer wrote) says 5.5J x 13 then it is 6J x13 according to Gadge-from-the-forum reference. But will the seller use manufacturer reference written on the wheel or Gadge-from-the-forum own reference?

BTW, Gadge, if we get back to my real 6.5J x 16 rims mentioned earlier, what are they according in Gadge reference? I am curious! Would that be a 7J x 16 then?


It it also quite possible to lower your car on this set up about 30mm and still not suffer any arch rubbing. Take it from a guy who has actually done this with success rather than a guy who writes articles about it.

Another way to look at it: take it from a guy that failed repeatdly to even identify his own rims, despite clear marking on them, and since then try to justify how he advertised to go for 6.5" while he actually meant 5.5"? Even on your most recent posts, you wrote "My cromodora alloys are SIX INCHES WIDE" while the wheels you have in your pictures are actually, manufacter reference, BWA Campanatura 5.5x13.

Document yourself: http://www.cromodorawheels.it/ is not http://www.bwaauto.com.au/
You do not have Cromodora. That is a brand that did not produce the wheels you have. READ THE MARKINGS.

I'll stick to what I said earlier, 5" 155 should be fine with no alteration - which I think is a useful info.

And I think anyone should be aware now that any size or reference you give is questionable since you do not follow standard measurements (the one all manufacturers agreed upon).

And I feel gentle today so I wont even mention that you failed to mention ET (offset), which actually could matter a great deal to fit large wheels in a car not designed for

Real small fat tyre will be easier with a positive offset.


Beside the noise :
https://tiresize.com/comparison/
http://www.willtheyfit.com/
should give you real data you can actually use to have a clue about how different or similar the new wheels you intend to mount will be.
(beware, the rim width there is according to manufacturer reference, not Gadge-from-the-forum reference)
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 10:27:30 AM by wtf »

Gadge

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Re: Small fat tyres?
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2017, 10:52:04 AM »
WTF - I have provided NathanMcM with all the relevant info he needs to aid him in fitting wider tyres to his car. He is now free to do as he pleases with that information. I have proven this by means of a picture that a SIX INCH WIDE alloy wheel with a 165/55/13 tyre will fit without any rubbing. The fact my wheels were once fitted to an Alfa Romeo or the make of the wheel is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to Nathan's orginal question. The fact that I don't know my own offset is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT all you have done is just bamboozle us with internet links and for what reason? Because you misunderstood the way I measure wheels? Or Because I dared question your "written report?"  :P the only failure is your attitude against someone who has successfully answered the question and has never claimed to be an expert (btw dragging links from the internet does not make you an expert). Everything you have added after the third post is either useless  or unimportant as you have never fitted a SIX INCH WIDE wheel to a 126 before. This means that I know more about it than you do. This is the most useful data that you'll need as it means it can be done.

You are new to this forum so will give you some slack and say that we are a simple forum and we are everyday people who buy, maintain and modify 126's. When we modify our cars we share that info so other are free to do so. Opinions are welcome. As are yours but what's not welcome is arrogance on a subject that has been asked and proven on many occasions. Everything that you have written past the 3rd post has been completely unecessary other than to try and catch me out as the question was answered and has since be re-answered. I am sensing a hint of "troll" about you in your efforts to catch me out instead of just excepting My response to the original question.  SIX INCHES IS SIX INCHES it's not a "Gadge-on-the-forum" size ....... It's the actual size!

I am not going to waste anymore of my time responding to smart ass comments about what you think you know. I advise that you do the same.

Oh and just for the record I never said I knew anything about offsets. The question was never asked. I openly said I didn't know my offset was. It may mean I know little about my wheels but This does not make me clueless about how wide a wheel can fit inside a 126 arch.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 02:01:31 PM by Gadge »
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