Author Topic: Another bike engined project bites the dust :(  (Read 43380 times)

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Gadge

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Re: Another bike engined project bites the dust :(
« Reply #75 on: July 18, 2016, 06:06:55 PM »
Spot on :thumbup I haven't got any issues with bike engined cars it's just no one can see a project through. I'm all for modifying (my own car is testiment to that) it's just soooo annoying to see so many abandoned bike (or even car engined) projects tuning up and it's fustrating to see that people are still turning up with the usual questions.... :(

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1973/126

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Re: Another bike engined project bites the dust :(
« Reply #76 on: July 19, 2016, 08:24:35 AM »
 Well here is something a bit different.
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1977-S-REG-FIAT-126-RACE-CAR-ROAD-CAR-2-1-PINTO-ENGINE-/272312008039?hash=item3f670f7d67:g:5G4AAOSwIgNXjSZo
 MOT-ed, untaxed since 1992, registered as 1977 - 650cc and it looks like a post 95 EL shell :o.
 Must be good fun to drive though.
1972 Fiat 500
1980 Fiat 126

Gadge

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Re: Another bike engined project bites the dust :(
« Reply #77 on: July 19, 2016, 10:51:45 AM »
I have actually seen this car at an autoitalia show earlier this year and I spoke to the chap who was very nice. It was built by someone who knows there onions when it comes to engine swaps and It's very well made and proves that with the right sort of engineering, engine swaps can be successfully done without comprimising the handling. You just have to think before you cut.
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Bambino126

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Re: Another bike engined project bites the dust :(
« Reply #78 on: July 19, 2016, 05:12:07 PM »
Oh yeah -  that's the car from Auto Italia that was parked next to mine this year.

Had a long chat with the guy. He went to great lengths to make a "front-engined" 126.

Big fella too - When he got in his 126 it was full up!

Pete126

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Re: Another bike engined project bites the dust :(
« Reply #79 on: July 19, 2016, 05:26:15 PM »
The problem is that it is still registered as a 650cc it may have an MOT and you could tax it as a 650cc but what do you insure it as, if you put 2.1 engine it does not match the DVLA records try and explain that to PC plod when you get stopped  or have an accident, if it had been through a SVA test it would have been registered as 2.1 engine it's basically a track car as all the other motor bike engined 126's are.


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Bambino126

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Re: Another bike engined project bites the dust :(
« Reply #80 on: July 19, 2016, 07:13:01 PM »
So if he had registered it as 2.1, and then insured it as 2.1, would it then be road legal? Or is there more to it than that?

Pete126

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Re: Another bike engined project bites the dust :(
« Reply #81 on: July 19, 2016, 07:53:12 PM »
Its not as simple as that, because the bulk head has been cut extensively to fit the engine in which might compromise the rigidity of the body shell if it was not done correctly, it would have to go through the SVA test to make sure that it complied with SVA specification

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drcdb15

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Re: Another bike engined project bites the dust :(
« Reply #82 on: July 19, 2016, 11:05:14 PM »
So if he had registered it as 2.1, and then insured it as 2.1, would it then be road legal? Or is there more to it than that?

It's also a bit chicken and egg. If you tell the insurer you've swapped the engine and it's now (say) 2100cc, they say fine, here's the premium, you pay up, you're insured, right? Wrong. Because in signing the insurance application you are also declaring that the vehicle is roadworthy etc etc.

The catch 22 here is that unless you personally are a registered vehicle tester with your own test facility there's no way you can have tested the vehicle in compliance with the legal SVA test requirement. That means that, no matter how competent your engineering skills, in law the vehicle is NOT roadworthy. And *that* means that you have made a false declaration to the insurance company, and *that* means that you - in law - do not have any insurance, even though in fact you paid the premium.

So that in turn means you cannot legally drive to the SVA test station, you have to trailer the car there. Only when it's passed the SVA test can you be sure your insurance is valid.

Now of course all of these procedural hurdles can be overcome, but they are not trivial, nor are they free. Last time I got a car trailered it cost me over £300.  If you have deep pockets and lots of facilities at your disposal, loads of friends in the trade who have vans and welding kit and acres of free parking, typically in heated workshops, that's all well and good, and you can turn out pro quality cars like the blue one Ladislav spotted for 7 grand - but (having spent over that much myself on one car re-build project that was aborted due to spiralling costs) I expect that car cost more like sevenTEEN thousand to build, if it was costed commercially.

In the world of engineering, you can do pretty much anything you like, if you've got enough time and money. Sadly most of us haven't.

thepuddlejumper

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Re: Another bike engined project bites the dust :(
« Reply #83 on: July 20, 2016, 12:21:58 PM »
This 126 was featured in January 2015 issue of Practical Performance Car. There is more detail on the build and builders. A note on the SVA test, this is maybe three-four years old, my friend bought a Porsche VW kit car which was part finished from America. He was running round in circles to get it through an SVA test. He contacted a kit car builder in England who said he could get it through, after a safety chech, as is as he was a low volume car builder. This was a cheaper option so the car went down south and returned a couple of days later. So there may be alternative routes for low volume car builders getting their cars road legal. Z Cars have built a few Fiat 500's with 2000cc+ Subaru engines and Subarugears reversed gear box's, which required modification to the rear floor pan and bulkhead these seem to be road legal as are their bike engined minis. Anyway this 126 was for sale in January 2015 for £10,000, if I were interested I would check out if it is legal for the road before parting with £7,000.


Ralph
« Last Edit: July 20, 2016, 12:31:28 PM by thepuddlejumper »

Bambino126

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Re: Another bike engined project bites the dust :(
« Reply #84 on: July 20, 2016, 01:15:44 PM »
So as I understand it the SVA test should be the guys 1st port of call before registering, insuring or anything else - no point going any further if it doesn't pass or needs further work to pass.

He must be having trouble selling it, it was up for sale at £9000 at the show.

thepuddlejumper

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Re: Another bike engined project bites the dust :(
« Reply #85 on: July 20, 2016, 07:32:13 PM »
Hi all just found this on line looks very interesting again what about SVA???  You need to scroll up for 500 kit

http://www.zcars.org.uk

Ralph

Da Londo

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Re: Another bike engined project bites the dust :(
« Reply #86 on: July 20, 2016, 07:55:03 PM »
Hi all just found this on line looks very interesting again what about SVA???  You need to scroll up for 500 kit

http://www.zcars.org.uk

Ralph

Not bad at all!

drcdb15

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Re: Another bike engined project bites the dust :(
« Reply #87 on: July 20, 2016, 10:21:33 PM »
again what about SVA??? 

Ralph

As a low volume car builder I would imagine Z Cars (at least, the original firm - seems like they've had some changes to their business so maybe this is legally a new company) would have been authorised to self-certify its cars.

However, the chap in the video is talking about offering a DIY kit for customers who "want your Fiat 500 to go faster" (classic British understatement!) so if I as Joe Punter bought said kit and fitted it to my own Fiat bodyshell it would be no different legally from me getting an engine from a scrappy and building my own conversion from scratch - so I'd need to arrange my own SVA test. ... (and yes, Bambino126, the SVA test has to be the first hurdle as if you can't clear that then all else is money down the drain unless you have your own farmland or airstrip to drive around on)...

UNLESS:....

in the old days of kit cars, ie the 1960s and 1970s, before the onslaught of European-wide type approval regs etc, there were still requirements that any 'special' or conversion had to comply with what in those days was called Construction & Use Regulations, part of the Road Traffic Act iirc. Then as now, keen amateurs were long on enthusiasm but short on authorised test facilities.

To get around the C&U Regs requirements, kit car suppliers who offered a minimum number of the same model of kit could get a sort of type approval for their particular offering, provided it was built into a car by the buyer exactly as specified by the kit car manufacturer.

So for example, if KitKars4U had a production run of say 45 kits that they themselves had already had approved if used with a donor Ford Escort 1600, then provided the customer also used a Ford Escort 1600 donor, and provided he followed KitKars4U's assembly instructions to the letter, then the resulting vehicle was deemed to be approved, and would only be shown not to be 'correct' when it was tested at its first MoT test. If it passed, then all was fine and the use could enjoy it at leisure. (How and to what extent this arrangement was monitored and enforced I have no idea - most likely hardly at all... ah, the sixties...  8))

If on the other hand he decided to use the kit with a Chevy V36 2000cu in dragster donor, then he was back to square one and had to get the individual vehicle testing sorted out himself.

I don't know if this sort of approval is still available with kit cars today... anybody ?

thepuddlejumper

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Re: Another bike engined project bites the dust :(
« Reply #88 on: July 20, 2016, 11:55:52 PM »
Just looked up type approval and guess what there is a system for multi stage builders. This allows for converting vehicles with a type approved alteration I copied a section see below:

Many vehicles are built using a process whereby a base vehicle (normally a chassis or chassis/cab) is produced and then another manufacturer (normally a body builder or converter) subsequently finishes the vehicle. To complement this real life situation a Multi Stage Approval process is available to enable the chassis manufacturer to approve the chassis (the first stage) as an "incomplete vehicle", when a body builder or converter approves the vehicle subsequently (a subsequent or final stage) it becomes a "completed vehicle".

This could be the method of keeping things legal as in days of old with kit car kits.

Only thing is I received a quote, two or three years back, from ZCars for an adapter plate, I was offered a kit which included the adapter plate, flywheel bolts and a starter for £2,000 or £4,000 fitted if I gave them a 500 without an engine.

Ralph

Pete126

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Another bike engined project bites the dust :(
« Reply #89 on: July 21, 2016, 01:43:35 AM »
I think the key point is Chassis or Chassis Cab which I interpret relates to commercial vehicles I.e. You can buy say a ford transit chassis/cab which can become an ambulance, fire truck, tipper truck and so on, so all will be type approved as the basic chassis/cab has not been altered, cutting a monocoque chassis I would think is a different kettle of fish.


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« Last Edit: July 21, 2016, 01:45:12 AM by Pete126 »
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