Club126UK

Fiat 126 Chat => Fiat 126 Mechanical Problem Solving => Topic started by: Xylaquin on June 12, 2017, 03:08:24 PM

Title: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Xylaquin on June 12, 2017, 03:08:24 PM
Hi folks,

I've bought myself a new crankcase, cylinder head, pistons, rings etc
I'm considering that if I've gone to the effort of getting these parts shouldn't I also replace the engine bearings.

My problem is, how can I tell which bearing is correct: there are 8 listed here (http://club126uk.co.uk/subscribersgroup/BISEPC/EPC2/05.html)!

Likewise, for the valve guides, there are three part numbers in the EPC (http://club126uk.co.uk/subscribersgroup/BISEPC/EPC2/10.html)!
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Xylaquin on June 19, 2017, 11:25:08 PM
(http://i67.tinypic.com/x58dp2.jpg)

Everything has arrived. The highlight was getting a brand new cylinder head from Poland for the same price it cost to buy the valve springs from Ricambio  ::)
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: drcdb15 on June 20, 2017, 12:37:22 PM
Ummm....  you call this thread Engine "RE" build, but it looks as if what you are actually doing is building a brand new engine and then putting an OLD crankshaft, old cylinders, old push rods and con rods etc in it...

Wouldn't it be worth replacing the whole lot? I can't say about the engineering wisdom of mixing (worn) old and new major components like this, but seems a shame not to go the whole way and know that you've got a complete brand new engine. Would raise the resale value too I imagine.

Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Xylaquin on June 20, 2017, 01:40:17 PM
Yeah, I'm on the same train of thought really... but my wallet isn't!

The crankcase seems to have came with cylinders installed in it already (although I could be being naïve)
Does the crankshaft really wear out as bad as other the parts which are exposed to combustion? Wouldn't the bearings in the rods be the parts that take the wear?
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: drcdb15 on June 20, 2017, 10:37:46 PM
Whether or not a bearing will wear out is partly driven by the loads to which it is exposed, as you say, but also by the extent of the lubrication. Arguably a massive bearing like the big-end will continue to run longer than some other more delicate bearing simply becasue it is of simple construction that is tolerant of excessive wear, being out of true etc. Imagine a big end starved of oil - it will pretty much just keep on chugging along. Now think of a needle bearing under the same conditions - it will likely break up with broken pins and rollers spewing out in all directions. Just becasue the bearing is still running doesn't mean it always will, nor that it isn't worn. At the very least it might be worth getting the crank re-ground and new shells etc. Similarly, will there be new liners for the cylinders? (I can't recall offhand if the 126 engine has dry or wet liners to the cylinders but I assume it's got something!). How confident are you that all the oilways in the old engine were always clear and that the oil was always changed at the right intervals, and the correct grade was used... (etc, etc... you get the point, no doubt  :cry:)

Sorry to pee on your chips as they say, but it would be such a shame to spoil the 126 for a ha'porth of 20W40, so to speak.
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Xylaquin on June 20, 2017, 11:50:28 PM
I'm the tenth owner, it's done about 72k. Need I say more?  :P

Basically about a month ago I was diagnosing a starting problem and ended up shearing one of the spark plug holes. The car has had poor compression for quite some time and I reasoned that I might as well replace the cylinder head and a bunch of the engine too. This is how I got to the position I'm in now.

New shells are a definite, as are new pins. As I said, the new block seems to have liners already in it.
I don't quite understand the concept of "re-grounding" the crank... if something is worn, sure that means it has been ground down over it's use? How can grounding further correct it?

To go back to my original post though, what bearing do I get? There's multiple part numbers, I guess they correspond to the multiple bearings available with different allowances. Why sell bearings with allowances?
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: 126blackbird on June 21, 2017, 08:05:14 AM
If you have a crank re-ground you would then fit oversized bearings. If you take your crankshaft to someone who re-grinds them they will be able to  check it to see if it needs re-grinding or not
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Xylaquin on June 21, 2017, 12:54:59 PM
Ah! It's all starting to make sense now.

Time to start digging around Europe for more parts  :-
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: drcdb15 on June 21, 2017, 11:36:38 PM
Ah! It's all starting to make sense now.

Time to start digging around Europe for more parts  :-

Understandably cash flow can be an issue at times like this if you suddenly decide on extra expenditure not previously budgeted, and something like a crankshaft is very expensive and very heavy - hence 'heavy' shipping costs too. So it might be worth listing in detail all of the 'old' parts you had been intending to use, and sorting them according to:

1. can I use it for now, and replace later quite easily when I can afford it? - pushrod tubes and even the pushrods themselves come into this group. Also external parts like the distributor.
2. could I use it now if a replacement later is very difficult technically, provided the old part can be checked by experts and reconditioned in some way to be like new? - here the crankshaft is included. Maybe also the camshaft (I can't recall if that's been mentioned earlier or not).
3. this absolutely MUST be renewed, using the old part is totally out of the question regardless of how easy it might be to replace it. This group will include things like O-rings, oil seals, gaskets and of course main bearings and as has been mentioned big ends. You might also want to include small end gudgeon pins, circlips and any other spring clips, end float sprung washers (in my day I recall we used to call these 'Thackereys', never knew why), split pins and the like."

This analysis will not only act as a checklist to ensure you consider every single component of the engine, but also lead on to a bill of materials for purchase and a schedule for the order of work to be undertaken. It will also impress upon you if not already impressed just how many parts there are in even a simple engine like the 126 that make it all work !

Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: drcdb15 on June 21, 2017, 11:55:05 PM
If you have a crank re-ground you would then fit oversized bearings. If you take your crankshaft to someone who re-grinds them they will be able to  check it to see if it needs re-grinding or not
There are several videos on YouTube illustrating crank re-grinding, and obviously I haven't checked them all, but this one seems to me a good illustration to see what's involved. Essentially all the bearing journals are ground circular but as you observed, undersized. The associated bearing shells etc they will be fitted with are then correspondingly oversized. You will hear the engineer explain how once he has made the distorted or worn journal circular, he then has to set about making it a specific amount undersized - 10 thou [sandths of an inch], 15 thou etc, so as to correspond with the standard off-the-shelf sizes to which the shells are made. 10 "thou" is 10/1,000 inch, or 0.254mm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7Al0_ihWgs
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Xylaquin on June 22, 2017, 11:05:45 AM
Well I've bit the bullet and purchased a new crankshaft from a shop in Bulgaria!
Also placed an order with 126fan.sk for tappets, conrods, piston pins, clips, main bearings, pilot bearing, pushrods, rod bushes and valve retainers. Now just waiting to hear back from some other suppliers regarding a new camshaft and rocker.

and there was me planning a holiday this year!  :D
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Rusty's Uncle on June 22, 2017, 05:20:21 PM
Dare I ask what the Bis crankshaft cost?
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: drcdb15 on June 22, 2017, 05:44:07 PM
Well I've bit the bullet and purchased a new crankshaft from a shop in Bulgaria!

Your postie's gonna *love* you ! Generous Christmas box this year methinks  :P
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Xylaquin on June 22, 2017, 06:11:12 PM
Update: the Bulgarian shop refunded me when they realised it wasn't a BIS crankshaft. So I've found one on Allegro.

Dare I ask what the Bis crankshaft cost?

Brand new crankshaft (in original fiat box too) is costing about £160

Your postie's gonna *love* you !
They must wonder... I've had deliveries from Poland, Germany, Italy, Slovakia, France.
The things we do for cheap parts!
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Piotross on June 22, 2017, 09:53:03 PM
I got many engine parts for sell too, from Poland as we know :)
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Xylaquin on June 23, 2017, 08:33:01 AM
ah Piotross, you do indeed have a good reputation around here! I'm looking for a new BIS camshaft if you have one/can find one?
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Rusty's Uncle on June 23, 2017, 04:30:45 PM
Sounds like you are doing a real bonza job there. That price for the crankshaft is about as good a you are likely to get. Many sites offer them for around £300. Do not throw away your original one as it is probably quite useable , will fit an air cooled engine and is regarded as an upgrade for performance engines. Out of interest the first regrind on crank main bearings is 0.2mm or 0.008" .
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Xylaquin on July 08, 2017, 09:31:46 PM
Just waiting for the new camshaft to arrive any day now.

Interestingly, the new crankcase doesn't have an engine serial number on it. Thinking about using the same number as my old engine but put a 'b' on the end of it.
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Xylaquin on July 24, 2017, 11:09:44 PM
Any suggestions regarding how to break in a new BIS engine?
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Gadge on July 25, 2017, 07:20:55 AM
Don't over work it for the first 500 miles (which is difficult know :P) so let it tick over for a while before you drive it, don't red line it when you do and give it an oil change at 500 as well to flush out any crud that may be swirling around from the rebuild. Also if you've refitted the head don't forget to re-torque the head nuts after 700 miles (very important)
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Xylaquin on July 25, 2017, 10:36:11 AM
I've read that it should be varying revs: never high, but never just idling either.
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Xylaquin on April 03, 2019, 12:00:12 AM
For those who like a read...

Engine: Assemble!
With the parts mentioned earlier in this thread, I gave them all to one of my local garages to assemble, taking the missing good bits of my old engine (the sump for example). The two main reasons I asked a garage to do this were one: at the time, I wasn't confident in fiddling about with some of the internal engine parts. I reasoned I'd let a professional do the job. And two, back in 2017 I lived in a house which did not have a garage. I didn't have the space to assemble it myself. The garage I chose was one I'd been using ever since I moved here, I specifically chose them as they were older mechanics who had experience with older cars (I could see other customers bringing their classics to them). Certainly the first time I'd used them they were excellent.

You can see where this is going though can't you?

It took seven months to get the car back. Seven months sitting out in the salty sea air. Now I currently live in Orkney, and one of the many quirks of the culture here is that half of the garages/mechanics work in a rather strange way to me. Most people take their car to the garage and even if they're not given an ETA when they drop it off, the garage tends to do the job as soon as they can and get it back to the customer so they can collect payment. Not in Orkney, no, half the garages up here you have to actively chase them up to see if it's ready yet. It's strange. I breifly had a Vectra that took one month to get an MOT.

Anyway, even though I knew of this quirk at the time, I didn't expect seven months. And when I got it back it sounded horrendous. But it moved, and I missed it and I figured it was probably something that could be corrected with some tuning. I spent the next few days driving about the roads, breaking in the engine, doing oil changes. I even had the nerve to get the garage to retorque the engine for me. That only took them a few days though.

At this point I decided to consult someone who no-doubt knew how to correct the running of the engine: Gadge. He kindly agreed and round about March 2018 I set off down the country. (Normally I travel all the way down Scotland and back each month anyway, on this occasion I'd be going a little further!)

However about an hour in, the engine started jumping and then it just died. I got out and discovered my engine bay splattered with oil. When it was running, it seemed to come from the seal between the crankcase and the oil filter pulley. I got the AA the rest of the way down, contacted Gadge to call off our plan, spent a few days down in central belt Scotland then called up the AA to take me home again.

I took the car back to the garage, I even brought the replacement seal which I thought was the problem. They fitted it but it still slung oil everywhere. They then demonstrated that you could grab a hold of the crankshaft and wiggle it significantly. I can't remember exactly what I did next, but I someone got the car back to my house and contemplated what to do. Assembling all those parts cost a bit... and all for nothing really.

The pre-assembled engine
Not long after I had just sold a campervan and had a significant lump of money that I probably should have used to pay off a loan. Instead, I spied a preassembled/newly built BIS engine for sale at Fiat Fischer (by newly built, I mean they build to order from new old stock presumably). I took the plunge and a few weeks later a shiny new BIS engine arrived. I rest assured that it had been assembled by people who knew what they were doing, and all I need to do was mount it into the car.
(https://i.ibb.co/PhgXNQv/IMG-6721.jpg)
So I asked the garage to do it. Now before you cringe, I reasoned that since they literally just needed to lift it up and slot it on, and they'd had plenty of time getting familiar with a 126, they'd do it fine. And this time I would chase them constantly. It still took them weeks, and I had them fit a new fuel tank just for good measure. On this occasion it took far less time... but cost the same amount of labour charges. I questioned this... I'm not intimidating so I tried using logic to barter the invoice.

"Guys, how come it costs the same amount of money to fit an engine into a car... as it does to assemble an engine and fit it into the car?"

To add injury to insult, they failed it's MOT. I reckoned they were so sick of me chasing them up, so sick of seeing my car that they'd just pass the MOT and be done with me. Nope. Luckily it was only little niggly things... but I was still surprised. Finally, with the new engine fitted, MOT'd and insured, I set out. Ofcourse it didn't completely right, but it was a bit better.
But it jumped about. You couldn't cruise at a smooth speed, and after 60 miles it died.

Oh and before we go onto the next chapter, a few things I noticed during those 60 miles...

Third time lucky
I suspected my gasket had blown, as at one point in those 60 miles, the temperature guage had continued rising despite me turning the radiator fan on. I also found liquid in the oil cap and judging by the jumpy-performance and the fact the car no longer ignited I just knew it was probably gone.

And so, one year after first trying to visit Gadge, I contacted him again. He agreed, but then I had to cancel since when I was planning it out I could see I wouldn't be able to afford the journey. A month later I asked again and, despite a busy schedule and probably being a bit exasperated that this was the third time- he graciously agreed.

To get the car down to him, I used a local haulage company. Unfortunately they could only take it so far as their schedule was restricted to Scotland at the time, so I shipped the car down to my mum's house in central belt Scotland. Later in the month when it was time to spring into action, I travelled down and then called up the AA to take me down to Warwickshire (I do get my membership's worth out of those guys!) It took 12 hours, but I rolled up on Gadge's street, AA truck doing it's best to wake up the neighbourhood with it's flashing lights. Gadge and I pushed the BIS onto his driveway and he dropped me off at the inn round the corner.

The next day comprised of watching troubleshooting take place.
The battery had been trickle charged overnight, now on fast charge.
The headgasket was replaced.
The valve tappets were set.
The points were set.
The timing was set.
The oil was replaced, the coolant was replaced, the cooling was bled.
The fuel filter was replaced... loads of bits in it!
The timing was set again. The points were set again.
The choke cable was fixed.
The carb mixture was set... but it was way too rich, even on the lowest setting. The carb was cleaned, jets, bowl, float set. Still too rich... but it ran.

The theory was that the new plugs fitted would soot up when I got so far since it was running rich. But with that theory in mind, nothing else could be done and after a full day's work... it was time to try heading back.

The Journey
I had initially planned to spend four days travelling back to Orkney without using the motorway and travelling via backroads that I can carefully routed using a website that exports gpx files. A gpx file can be loaded by a satnav or phone app and this would guide me. I had planned to do it this way because the engine needed to be broke-in, varying revs and not labouring it. Gadge reckoned I'd be ok to go on the motorway... just not too fast, and I ended up taking his advise. At least it would be easier, quicker and wouldn't snap my clutch cable.

The first part of the journey in Warwickshire was lumpy, but as the engine heated up... it ran fine. When it came to idle it vibrated, but cruising up and down the revs on the M6 was quite bearable. Overall I was travelling 38-50mph, averaging about 44, and very occasionally going up to 58. I made it as far as Lancaster and stayed over in a Travelodge. As I was approaching, it was dark and with my lights on, the battery light glowed very very dim. Not as much as it had previously, but still... I have an electrical problem.

The next day I had just crossed the border when I noticed that my temp gauge was not decreasing despite turning the radiator fan on. I pulled over into Lockerbie and flipped the switch to find the fan was not turning. Spent the next half hour fiddling with the connectors, trying to find the problem. Ended up taking the back seat out, and inspecting the cable under the floor. But nothing. So having spent enough time that the engine was cool again, I headed into Dumfries where the nearest Halfords was. I bought a bunch of bunchs and electrical connectors and wired up the fan straight to the battery- it worked, so it as definitely the connection. I bridged the fuse... and it worked, so I looked at the fuse again. But it wasn't broken, nor was the fuse holder. Then I tried putting another fuse in and suddenly the fan worked. Scratching my head, I reasoned that the original fuse's slightly rusty pins must have been the cause.

Got as far as Hamilton and the fan did the same thing again. This time it was the fuse holder. Fixed, now onward.
Got to my mum's house, it was Mother's Day. Mission half accomplished. The overly-rich mixture carb had got me to Scotland.

The next day I rested, and today, Tuesday I travelled the next half of the journey, with no problems. I am typing this in my bedroom in Orkney, the BIS sitting outside. Its little engine has pushed me about 800 miles over these few days, tomorrow I will attempt to retorque the head.
(https://i.ibb.co/f48Wnm5/Screenshot-2019-04-02-at-21-15-43.png)(https://i.ibb.co/gMTpbm5/IMG-7262.jpg)

Then I've got a few things to fix...
- That battery light that comes on slightly when the headlights are on
- Only one of the lights in the instrument cluster turns on when you turn the headlights on
- The interior fan only works on full speed, not low speed.
- The first AA guy that took me down the route to Gadge towed me, so my mileage counter went up 82 miles.
- When the fuel tank is full, the fuel gauge is zero and only displays the correct amount when the tank is 95% or lower. Earth problem?

As for the carb...
- When the engine is cold, the car is a bit jumpy initially. And when you stick your foot down, the engine has a major flat spot for a split second then starts speeding up as expected
- I shall need to see if it still is running too rich, or if it's rich to a lesser extent
- Moreover I'll see if I can try a different carb
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: DeVilleChris on April 03, 2019, 12:32:46 AM
Quite a Story Lachlan!

Glad its working!! See you in July! :D
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Rusty's Uncle on April 03, 2019, 04:38:33 AM
Wow what a story and I guess there are more chapters to come as you continue to face the existing and emerging problems head on. Seems to me that you have dedication along with levels of tolerance and patience way beyond the norm. If there was an award for this you would certainly get the gold medal. I really hope that you achieve the happy reliable motoring that you deserve. One consolation is that you are getting to know your car and its little idiosyncrasies so well,
Good luck mate  :)
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Gadge on April 03, 2019, 09:36:55 AM
Never in all my life have I prayed more for someone to get home safety than you! I’m so glad you made it and even with the fan misbehaving it’s still an impressive achievement :thumbup it’s a testament to how resilient the BIS engine can be so long as it’s getting a good flow of air through that radiator and it’s been bled right. Well done!

It’s ashame that I never had more time with that carb. I felt I was nearly there with it. Maybe the drive home may have cleared the cobwebs from it and its possible it’ll respond better to a tune up now. The charging issue could be that immobiliser you have on the earth cable. If you put your multimeter across the battery when it’s running you can check the charge rate. It should read about 14.5v when charging dropping to around 13.5 with all the lights on. The heater fan speed resistor is on the motor try checking that the wires are all ok. The fuel gauge could be a dickie fuel sender in the tank and the dash light may well be just a bulb :thumbup
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Xylaquin on April 03, 2019, 07:08:54 PM
Tragedy has struck! In the process of retorqing the head today, whilst removing the inlet manifold some coolant came out and got into the inlets on the head. There must have been residual coolant in the pipe that feeds the manifold (I tried but failed to get it off earlier).

Luckily one of the intake valves was shut, and so it held all the coolant in. I used my housemate’s industrial vacuum to suck it out. Tried the other intake tunnel but there wasn’t anything in it, so I guessed it had got into the cylinder.

Carrying forward, with the exhaust off I put the vacuum into the exhaust tunnels on the head. This sounded convincing, as the vacuum made that familiar noise it does when it creates a vacuum externally (that noise your Hoover makes when you put the hose to your palm for example, and it can’t suck any more)

I then reassembled everything, poured in new liquid and oil... and tried to start it. I was expecting some effort as the engine would have to flush the flooded cylinder. Unsurprisingly this didn’t work, although it nearly started a couple of times!

Eventually the starter stopped spinning up each time I tried (plenty of battery, as when I was trying to start the starter was spinning consistently and not slowing down). Now when I turn the ignition t just clicks once and doesn’t bother.

Called it a day.
Tomorrow I shall pick up some new plugs and starter spray.

Urgh.
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Bar Vitelli on April 03, 2019, 07:34:03 PM
Stick with it, Lachlan, from what I can see you are doing an amazing job!

I travelled up to Scotland a couple of years back, it took forever, all the way to the beautiful Pennan Bay, it felt like the edge of the world, I can’t believe that you are even further up North!

👍😮
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Gadge on April 03, 2019, 08:01:15 PM
Remove the plugs, remove the fuel pump charge up the battery overnight and spin it over in the morning that should clear it :thumbup
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Xylaquin on April 04, 2019, 07:52:06 PM
I travelled up to Scotland a couple of years back, it took forever, all the way to the beautiful Pennan Bay, it felt like the edge of the world, I can’t believe that you are even further up North!
I've been there too! Bizarre to think that it's a village all on one coastal/cliffside street. If I remember correctly it doesn't even have a street name, you just live at, say 14 Pennan. I've lived in Orkney for 3 years now, I do miss "normal" Scotland sometimes!

Stick with it, Lachlan, from what I can see you are doing an amazing job!
Honestly, I'm this close to selling it. My appreciation of it and my motivation to continue have only been kept going by my memory from when it did work consistently.

Remove the plugs, remove the fuel pump charge up the battery overnight and spin it over in the morning that should clear it :thumbup

I read this last night but didn't memorise it exactly the same: this evening after returning from work I removed the fuel line from the pump and cranked the engine with the throttle down. The theory being that in doing so, both flaps would be open and as much air intake would be cranking into the cylinders, the cylinders would then be pushing any liquid out via the exhaust.

Turns out the starter motor was fine, the reason it stopped working was my battery terminal had came loose. So I was able to crank. I must have cranked for about 10 seconds then decided to fit the new sparks. Here are the old ones:

(https://i.ibb.co/30vxVY3/IMG-7269.jpg)

One thing occured to me as I was screwing the new plugs in... how do you know when to stop screwing? I tightened them up by hand until I couldn't any more, then I took a ratchet to them and screwed until it... felt tight enough? Attached everything back together then cranked... still nothing. It almost fired into action at one point, but then a few seconds later a loud snap-like bang which I can only assume was a backfire out the exhaust. Kept cranking, but nothing.

Tomorrow I shall try some starter fluid.
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Bar Vitelli on April 04, 2019, 10:21:09 PM
Don’t sell it! I’m working through a bucket list and one of the things on it is to take the 126 to Pennan Bay. If I do it would be great to meet up for a pit stop at the Pennan Inn! 😉👍
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Xylaquin on April 05, 2019, 06:37:01 PM
Well with some starter fluid it's almost starting now. The best I can do is get it to chug-chug-chug slowly on full throttle for a few seconds before giving up. Wonder if it's firing on one piston or if it's too lean now.

EDIT: Playing with the mixture hasn't really changed it. Here's as best as I can do...
[youtube]https://youtu.be/75mLO-axGX4[/youtube]

This is with the throttle to the floor. It'll keep going like that until I less go of the throttle.
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Rusty's Uncle on April 05, 2019, 08:32:15 PM
I wondered that if the engine is mechanically sound that you could get someone to give you a tow in gear over a decent distance to try and clear out any crap that is holding you up thus saving your battery and starter motor  :)
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Gadge on April 05, 2019, 09:48:14 PM
I fear some damage may have been done. It looks and sounds like it’s only firing on one cylinder. So it’s either an ignition fault or you’ve lost compression in a cylinder. You need to check the timing - do you remember how I did it with the test light?
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Xylaquin on April 05, 2019, 11:05:46 PM
I wondered that if the engine is mechanically sound that you could get someone to give you a tow in gear over a decent distance to try and clear out any crap that is holding you up thus saving your battery and starter motor  :)

I kinda figure all the crap must have been burned/expelled by now.

I fear some damage may have been done. It looks and sounds like it’s only firing on one cylinder. So it’s either an ignition fault or you’ve lost compression in a cylinder. You need to check the timing - do you remember how I did it with the test light?

Yeah I now how to use a timing gun (trouble is I don't have one!) But why would it be the timing?
Could it be that I've not replaced the plugs correctly... how do you tell how tight to screw them?
Tomorrow I'll remove the HT lead from each cylinder one at a time and see if it's any different, that'll determine if it's only firing on one and which one at that.
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Pete126 on April 06, 2019, 12:35:00 AM
Hi Lachlan, I know it shouldn't make any difference because of the waste spark ignition, but try taking out the distributor and turn the engine one full turn in gear then drop the distributor back in and retime
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Gadge on April 06, 2019, 07:15:03 AM
Yeah I now how to use a timing gun (trouble is I don't have one!) But why would it be the timing?
Could it be that I've not replaced the plugs correctly... how do you tell how tight to screw them?
Tomorrow I'll remove the HT lead from each cylinder one at a time and see if it's any different, that'll determine if it's only firing on one and which one at that.

Well it sounds like a mis fire so maybe the points have closed up or the condensers knackered. If you eliminate the timing side of things then you've half solved the problem you see. Fitment of the plugs won't have an effect unless their loose. The correct way would be to turn them in finger tight then tighten them with a plug socket until you feel a resistance then give it quarter of a turn. They don't need to be mega tight but being mega tight won't affect the running.
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Xylaquin on April 06, 2019, 11:10:37 AM
What's the other trick to timing a car without a timing gun? I could go buy one, but I'm just thinking I wouldn't be able to use it since the car only runs whilst I'm giving it full throttle over in the driver's seat. And even then, if I got a brick to do that job for me, would the engine be turning fast enough!

try taking out the distributor and turn the engine one full turn in gear then drop the distributor back in and retime

easily enough done... what's your theory in doing this?
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Gadge on April 06, 2019, 02:16:50 PM
Yes you can static time it. You’ll need a test lamp - remember that long pointy thing I had with the wire that clamped to the body? It had a bulb in it. So you hand turn the engine so the crank pulley mark lines up with the first small point of the three pointers, loosen the distributor slightly, switch on the ignition and touch the arm of the points. The test light will turn off and on as you twist the distributor body. You need to get that bulb to turn on as the points start to open. It’s not as accurate as a timing lamp but it’s good enough to get you going
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Xylaquin on April 06, 2019, 04:04:37 PM
Got my test lamp and corrected the timing. Still runs just as bad. It's not even slightly better nor worse, strangely.
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Pete126 on April 06, 2019, 11:57:39 PM
I had a similar problem when i rebuilt my engine it only fired on one cylinder spent over a week going over the settings Valve timing, Ignition Timing, Points, so in desperation i did as mentioned above and it started firing on both,  do a compression test on both cylinders should read around 140psi have you tried slackening off the distributor with the engine running or with someone turning the ignition/starter then physically move it round and see if it comes back
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Xylaquin on April 09, 2019, 06:50:44 PM
It’s getting there, I’ve retimed it, checked both plugs are sparking, cleaned both plugs and swapped them and now I can start the car with the choke up and no throttle. Any throttle and it kapoots, as seen here...

[youtube]https://youtu.be/F795Q37xUGg[/youtube]
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Gadge on April 09, 2019, 08:05:24 PM
Might be running lean. Remember, I had to screw the mixture screw right in as far as it would go to get it to run. It may well have cleared its self out on the way up to Scotland. Try turning it out about 4 or 5 turns and see what happens
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Xylaquin on April 09, 2019, 08:54:38 PM
No difference.
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Gadge on April 10, 2019, 08:30:46 PM
I just watched the last video you posted again and it looks like it's running lumpy. Now that you've ruled out the timing and the mixture hasn't changed anything it's now probably best you do a compression test on it. The more you rule out the closer to the problem you get.
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Xylaquin on April 13, 2019, 01:10:13 PM
A colleague at work lent me his endoscope, a little camera used to look through the spark holes into the cylinder. It was a cheap thing from eBay so the video feed was unclear but I did see that some sort of liquid was sitting in the cylinder closest to rear of the car. Not a lot, but still enough to give me confidence that my piston rings are ok.

I then bought a compression tester and eureka! Only one cylinder has compression.
The cylinder closest to the gearbox reads 7.5bar (it's supposed to be 8.6!)
The cylinder closest to the rear (which had the liquid) gets absolutely no compression, none at all.

So I'm hoping it's just a blown gasket or bad valve timing.

At first I was a little surprised that some liquid was still in the cylinder, but it makes sense... it's not been burned up by any ignition and there's not enough of it to be simply pushed out.

In any case, it's time to take it all apart again  :cry:
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Pete126 on April 14, 2019, 12:06:32 AM
If you re-torque the head you need to reset the tappets as if their too tight the valves won't close giving you the same compression symptoms 
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Xylaquin on May 06, 2019, 04:45:49 PM
Still no joy. Took it all apart again, even had the head skimmed, new gaskets all in place, valve clearances set correctly, pushrods definitely in the correct way. Put it all back together again and still... absolutely no compression on one cylinder.
The other cylinder has great compression though... so there's that.

Honestly about to give up.
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Gadge on May 06, 2019, 09:48:04 PM
Must be rings then surely  ::)
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: nick7nick7 on May 06, 2019, 10:12:53 PM
Between us we have 2 cylinders running at full compression!

What's the compression like when the engine is warm?

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Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Pete126 on May 06, 2019, 11:32:33 PM
Sorry to hear you’re still having problems, has this engine ever run right? Is it spitting water out of the exhaust? When you had the head off did you check the two liners for cracks? I mention this because I used to own a Panda 4X4 which I assumed the head gasket had gone, I replaced it three times the fourth when I took the head off piston three was at the bottom of the stroke when I noticed a dark spot on the lower part of the liner which when inspected was a hairline crack  which opened up when it got hot, just another thing to check if you take the head off again 🙁
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: ChrisRLewis on May 07, 2019, 12:13:40 AM
It maybe worth checking if the piston liners are not sitting too high or too low in the crankcase.
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Xylaquin on May 07, 2019, 08:42:18 AM
What's the compression like when the engine is warm?
Can't really get the engine warm, as it's only able to idle (see my previous video in this thread). If I push the throttle it dies.

Must be rings then surely  ::)
Either that or a valve seat?

I'd be kinda surprised if it's a ring, surely if it were a ring I'd still get a little compression. Plus the first time I looked into the bore I could see it was holding up some liquid. If it's able to do that then I figured it sealed fine. But then again the ring could have a gap at the top.

Sorry to hear you’re still having problems, has this engine ever run right?
Yes... mostly. I mean the carb mixture was off, but I drove it 800 miles up the road a month ago.

Is it spitting water out of the exhaust? When you had the head off did you check the two liners for cracks?
Yes and yes. But the water coming out was residual from the spillage... I don't think it's perpetual.
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: nick7nick7 on May 07, 2019, 09:20:49 AM
What's the compression when warm? If it idles, then you will have a little temperature in it.

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Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: nick7nick7 on May 07, 2019, 10:26:10 AM
Is it breathing heavy?
I had to disconnect the breather pipe return to the carb because mine breathes heavy

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Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Xylaquin on May 08, 2019, 06:25:49 PM
Haven’t left it running long enough.

Compression is zilch and perfect.
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Pete126 on May 08, 2019, 09:54:48 PM
Hi mate clutching at straws now, but I just remembered years ago that I had another problem after setting the tappets the engine was only firing on one cylinder after taking the rocker cover off I noticed that there was a patch inside the cover that looked like something had been touching the inside which aligned to the valves, the problem was that I over tightened the rocker cover so the valves on one cylinder were not closing. If the two holes are are sunk into the rocker cover with over tightening make them level also if the gasket is compressed too much this could be a problem, you can check this by removing the cover and do another compression check.
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Xylaquin on May 09, 2019, 07:27:45 PM
Pete, it's so crazy an idea... but it worked!!

I slackened off the rocker cover and got compression back!
What an absolute quirk  :o

I do seem to have pushed in my rocker cover's holes as you mention, as I only got the compression with the rocker cover pretty-much off. When I put it back on and tighten it even slightly (just as much as is required to stop any oil drops) we're back to no compression again.

Now I've got a breakthrough it's time to get into my garage again to have another go.
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Pete126 on May 09, 2019, 08:02:48 PM
That’s fantastic news Lachlan 👍 I read through the thread again last night and it jogged my memory, when you’ve adjusted the rocker box with a hammer from the inside make sure the gasket is in good condition, I stick the gasket onto the cover with silicone and leave to go off after pressing it down on a flat surface, when you’re ready to refit clean the head and smear a thin layer of silicone onto the gasket, when you tighten the nuts as soon as you see the silicone squishing out it’s tight enough 😉
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Xylaquin on May 24, 2019, 11:43:51 AM
Well I’m back on the road, kinda.

Got the engine going on Wed, drove about fine. Drove home, parked up for the night.
The next morning it wouldn’t start until I’d re-set the timing.
Went to work, parked there for most of the day, once again it wouldn’t start until I’d re-set the timing. This morning, yet again it won’t start, and despite setting the timing three times just won’t fire into action.

I’m definitely screwing down the dizzy enough. Any ideas?
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: nick7nick7 on May 24, 2019, 12:18:55 PM
Sounding similar to my current issue.
I've had to change my timing to start, but when warm (obviously) it's out
Do I've set it in the middle.

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Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Xylaquin on May 24, 2019, 02:23:35 PM
Yours is a crack in the engine if I recall correctly (what’s the situation with replacing that btw?) whereas I’ve got full compression now.

Suspect it’s either the advance mechanism, points or capacitor.
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Xylaquin on June 02, 2019, 02:33:31 PM
Well I've been daily driving the BIS for 12 days now, and it's had no problems 9 out of 12 of those.

Sometimes after being parked for a few hours, it won't start. Each time I've got it going again by setting the static timing with a test bulb. It's never the first time either:
I set the timing, turn the key,
set the timing, turn the key,
set the timing, turn the key and THEN it'll go.

I just don't understand it.

And now today it's refusing completely, I either hear a loud BANG once I stop cranking or conversely a gentle "poot" backfire.

Once it's going, it's fine.... and when I check the timing with a strobe light it's jumping around the 10* mark too.
I'm convinced BIS must stand for Bloody Ignition System.
(https://i.ibb.co/z7HJG84/IMG-7420.jpg)
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Rusty's Uncle on June 02, 2019, 07:09:11 PM
You have the patience of a saint ! Have you ever considered moving Scottish isles , IONA maybe  :)
I think that the continual resetting of the timing is a bit of a smokescreen unless something is seriously floating about in your engine or distributor. I am no Bis expert but I assume that the distributor internals are in good order, points set and the vacuum advance working and not sticking. Then you have those pipe connections to the carb. The loud bang in the exhaust is the unburnt fuel igniting in the exhaust which suggests timing but could it be you are loosing the spark for some reason then it finally cuts in? So maybe a bad connection or a short circuit. When it will not spark can you test for a spark?
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Xylaquin on June 02, 2019, 08:49:58 PM
Well I took the sparks out, spun the engine to clear out any flooding (one spark was wet)
Cleaned the sparks, put them back in and cranked... and it started for a second then died. Almost!

Based on the sparks it's definitely running too rich, so maybe it's just a case of fitting new sparks for the time-being and running with them another 500 miles  ::)

Last week I took ownership of a gas tester, and it's running at 6-7%, when it should be no more than 1.5! Fiddling about with the idle mixture screw didn't seem to change it much... I shall need to have another go at it once it's running again.
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Xylaquin on June 03, 2019, 09:00:15 AM
and this morning easily started. Weird.
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: michaelodonnell500 on June 03, 2019, 09:13:12 AM
I have had a very similar issue once.
Car would start, run fine for a while, then cut out. The only way to get it started again was to reset the timing which was significantly out.

In my case the distributor had not been put back together properly (by me!) and the gear shaft was able to rotate independently of the points. This would mirror what Rusty is saying about something possibly floating about in the distributor.

Do you have a spare to swap over?
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: ChrisRLewis on June 03, 2019, 12:26:03 PM
Could it be a problem with the centrifugal weights in the distributor  sticking or a faulty spring on the weights?
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Xylaquin on June 03, 2019, 08:17:00 PM
I’ve got a spare dizzy and a spare carb.
Wish I had a spare exhaust as I blew mine today!

(https://i.ibb.co/8md1Tdy/93313386-C8-DD-4671-959-A-AA291-D6-EC9-A8.jpg)

A combination of backfires and not screwing it on correctly finally took its toll.
Never scrimp-by on less than ALL the screws folks.
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Gadge on June 04, 2019, 07:22:50 AM
Same thing happened to mine on the same cylinder but a bit further up on the first bend. The bolts holding it on the side of the head came loose so the vibrations went to town on it and shatter it :(
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Xylaquin on June 16, 2019, 04:21:00 PM
New exhaust fitted. Bit the bullet and bought from Ricambio because I wanted it delivered asap... unfortunately it took a week to get here, seems ParcelForce aren't as quick as Royal Mail if you live in the KW postcode!

I also decided to try out Axel Gerstl's preformed valve cover gasket (https://webshop.fiat500126.com/en/engine-parts-und-gaskets/valves/valve-cap-gasket-preformed-with-notch-for-valve-cap). Unfortunately it didn't work and oil came spilling out of it once the engine was put together again and turning over.

*sigh*

Took off the new exhaust
cleaned off the spilt oil
fitted a normal flat valve cover gasket and put it back together....AGAIN
This time it doesn't leak!

Just for future reference, does anyone have any tips on fitting a BIS exhaust... when fitting it and removing it I tilt it in various directions but there doesn't seem to be an easy way of getting it past the valve cover without scraping.

But anyway, after all the palava, that's the exhaust sorted.


I've still got the frustrating random ignition problem though...

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4xfK4YP4C4[/youtube]
Title: Re: Engine rebuild supplies
Post by: Pete126 on June 17, 2019, 01:12:17 AM
:wave

Aftermarket exhausts never fit properly and if you strain them they won't last long, this is how I have fitted them in the past, bolt the down pipes to the manifold then mark the brackets on the exhaust through the holes on the engine support brackets, remove the exhaust and adjust the holes using a round file or re-drill to match the marks, by doing this the exhaust won't be stressed and will last longer.

Have you checked the condition of the timing chain/gears if they are worn the timing will be all over the place because the distributor is driven by the gear on the camshaft